D&D 5E Comparing Monk DPR

[TwoSix]

Maybe I am underestimating Stunning Strike, but I feel that as a martial class, can't it do decent damage as well as have access to it?

It could, but a monk probably should need to spend some Ki to do high-tier damage, and Stunning Strike is so good it's pretty much always better to spam Ki on landing Stunning Strikes instead. That's the big fail with Monks; take out Stunning Strike and add some additional Ki damage features at Tiers 2-4 and it would be fine.

 

[Mistwell]

Not my experience, even with Hypnotic Pattern & Banishment being very useful. Level 10 Monk has around 30 Ki per typical Adventuring Day with 2 short rests. Wizard 10 can Nova a few times but cannot spam level 3 & 4 spell slots the way a Monk can repeatedly Stun round after round. Also Stun is more powerful than just Incapacitated by HP, or removed from combat by Banishment - both of which require Concentration.

An enchanter can "stun" an infinite number of times, at level 2.

This is truly a silly argument. Of course a wizard can lock down people better than a monk. Do we really even need to go over the very many many many spells a wizard can use to lock targets down for much longer than the single run of a monk stun, and without the need to refresh with a short rest which might not be available when you need it?

Come on man a level 10 Wizard has 16 spell slots all of which can lock down for: 1) multiple rounds with one casting to the monks single round per stun, 2) most of which can lock down many targets with a single use to the monks single target single round stun, 3) all of which can target a save other than the most commonly resisted Con save which the monk must target, and 4) monks need to HIT THEIR TARGET USING THEIR DEX SCORE FIRST before they can even apply the wisdom-based stun DC to the Con save of their foe while the wizard doesn't need to overcome that hurdle to apply the save. And all of this comes on line for the wizard before the monk even gets to stun at level 5, AND it doesn't suffer from the multi-attribute-dependency that the monk suffers from because the monk stun depends on their wisdom but hitting with the attack which can trigger the stun requires Dex.

There is no comparison. Anyone who has ever played a wizard focused on locking foes down and a monk focused on locking foes down knows the wizard can do it a lot better and easier than the monk.

That in itself doesn't make the monk suck because they do more than stun, but it does put the lie to the claim that monks are great lockdown classes. They're not.

 

[Noxrim]

It could, but a monk probably should need to spend some Ki to do high-tier damage, and Stunning Strike is so good it's pretty much always better to spam Ki on landing Stunning Strikes instead. That's the big fail with Monks; take out Stunning Strike and add some additional Ki damage features at Tiers 2-4 and it would be fine.

Maybe if Stunning Strike was a different resource (a number of times = proficiency modifier per rest?), they would have more fun options with Ki.
Although I am of the same mindset as Mistwell, in that the control aspect of the Monk is not strong enough to warranty the gimp it receives in other aspects. Wizards can do amazing control (much better than Monk in my opinion), but they also have the option to do good damage as well as other utilities and buffs.
The Monk can do a lot of things with Ki, and so I think they all should be optional to have the Monk function. That way, a Monk would be able to spend Ki to solve whatever problem arises based on the situation: Stun, do more than average damage, dodge, disengage or use a subclass feature.
If a Monk spends their Ki to improve their damage, they should do more than what a Rogue can do with no resources, not barely meet it.

 

[NotAYakk]

The monk's lockdown ability is really top notch only when they are spamming a single foe with legendary resists.

No other class that I know of can land 4 save-or-suck attempts per round like a monk can. A foe relying on legendary resists to stop effects can be whittled down faster by a monk than other classes quite often.

In other contexts, their stun is a solid feature, but not top-of-game good.

 

[NotAYakk]

Maybe if Stunning Strike was a different resource (a number of times = proficiency modifier per rest?), they would have more fun options with Ki.
Although I am of the same mindset as Mistwell, in that the control aspect of the Monk is not strong enough to warranty the gimp it receives in other aspects. Wizards can do amazing control (much better than Monk in my opinion), but they also have the option to do good damage as well as other utilities and buffs.
The Monk can do a lot of things with Ki, and so I think they all should be optional to have the Monk function. That way, a Monk would be able to spend Ki to solve whatever problem arises based on the situation: Stun, do more than average damage, dodge, disengage or use a subclass feature.
If a Monk spends their Ki to improve their damage, they should do more than what a Rogue can do with no resources, not barely meet it.

Note my "monk fix" above made level 11 monks get 1 free Ki to spend each round (with restrictions against spamming healing), and lets them use 2 of their bonus action Ki features per round (but not the same one twice).

So at level 11, their baseline becomes a flurry instead of a MA attack. They can trade the extra flurry damage for another stun, a dash, a dodge, etc. And they can move in, flurry, and dodge at the cost of 1 "real" Ki.

They become better at what they did from level 1-10.

That deals with much of the problem post-10. I don't know if you consider there to be a problem from 1-10?

 

[NotAYakk]

It could, but a monk probably should need to spend some Ki to do high-tier damage, and Stunning Strike is so good it's pretty much always better to spam Ki on landing Stunning Strikes instead. That's the big fail with Monks; take out Stunning Strike and add some additional Ki damage features at Tiers 2-4 and it would be fine.

I'm tempted to make Stunning Strike be 1/round, and impose disadvantage if you triggered it on a critical hit.

That both reduces the desire to have a huge pile of Ki to spam it on a boss, and leaves more room for more features elsewhere. The critical-disadvantage also encourages saving it for a key moment.

I might allow you to use it on a critical hit even if you did it earlier actually, instead of or in addition to the disadvantage. Makes it more fun.

Actually... make it ki-free on a critical hit and disadvantage on the check. That is fun. (It might over-encourage half-elf champion 3/monk 5 elven accuracy builds? Or Hex 1/Samurai 3/Monk 5. But if the worst that happens if my players do creative and unique charop...)

Spoiler

Ok, trip-vantage for 27% crit chance, 3 attacks/round is 0.81 crits/round and 46% chance of at least one every round (with disadvantage). A flurry adds 0.27 disadvantage-save-stuns for 1 Ki, which makes flurry a bit more tempting, but still not as efficient as burning Ki for stunning.

The standard monk spamming to drop legendary resists at level 8 drains their Ki over about 3 rounds to force 8 saves. This frankenstunner gets 2.43 saves at disadvantage for 0 Ki. They can burn 1 Ki/round on an extra stun attempt, and 2 other Ki on additional attacks, for 2.97 disadvantage stuns and 3 normal stuns. That pretty closely matches the 8 normal stuns on most targets (a disadvantage stun isn't quite twice as good as a normal stun on a foe with legendary resist). Each round afterwards the frakenstunner gets 0.81 additional disadvantage saves.

The frankenstunner does this all the time; if they attack a foe with 3 attacks, there is a about a 61% chance the foe will have to make 1 or more stun saves at disadvantage, up to 71% chance if they flurry. That could get tiresome, so maybe this isn't a good plan.

I could grant a free stun attempt on a critical hit; they can then choose to spend 1 Ki to give disadvantage on the check. That might be a happy medium. Stun-spamming a boss at maximal rate is:

Spoiler

Fast burning down a bosses legendary resists becomes
1. Spend a ki on a stun attempt
2. Spend a ki on a flurry
3. Spend a ki when you crit to force disadvantage.

This costs 3.08 Ki/round, and gives 1 stun save and 1.08 stun save at disadvantage, and a flurry hit. They can drop it to 2 Ki per round for 2.08 stun attempts per round and a flurry hit, or 1.81 Ki per round for 1 stun save and 0.81 at disadvantage and no flurry hit.

If we value disadvantage saves as 1.5 normal saves, that is:
0.81 free, 1.08 +flurry for 1 ki, 2.62 +flurry for 3.08 ki, 2.08+flurry for 2 ki, 2.2 for 1.81 Ki.

Subtracting the free 0.81 we get
3.08Ki: +1.81+flurry
2Ki: +1.27+flurry
1.81Ki: +1.405
1Ki: +0.27+flurry
1Ki: +1
0.81 Ki: + 0.405
0Ki: +0

On the +flurry cases:

3.08Ki: 2Ki + 0.54 stun (0.5 stuns/Ki)
2Ki: 1Ki + 1.0 stun (1 stun/Ki)
1Ki: +0.27+flurry (0.27 stun+flurry/ki)
0Ki: +0
nicely showing diminishing marginal returns.

Here we have:
1.81Ki: +1.405 (0.5 Ki/stun over 1 Ki)
1.0Ki: +1.0 (1.0 Ki/stun over 0 Ki)
0.81 Ki: + 0.405 (0.5 Ki/stun over 0 Ki)
0Ki: +0

Comparing these:

2Ki: +1.27+flurry
1.81Ki: +1.405
0.19 Ki for -0.14 stuns and a flurry.

1Ki: +0.27+flurry
1.0Ki: +1.0 (1.0 Ki/stun over 0 Ki)
0 Ki for -0.27 stuns and a flurry

1Ki: +0.27+flurry
0.81 Ki: + 0.405
0.19 Ki for -0.14 stuns and a flurry

If we value a stun attempt at 1 Ki, we get:

2Ki: +1.27+flurry
1.81Ki: +1.405
0.05 Ki for a flurry.

1Ki: +0.27+flurry
1.0Ki: +1.0 (1.0 Ki/stun over 0 Ki)
0.27 Ki for a flurry

1Ki: +0.27+flurry
0.81 Ki: + 0.405
0.05 Ki for a flurry

The flurry options look pretty tempting. So tactically, you usually want to first flurry, then spend ki on a strike that hits, and then spend ki forcing disadvantage on critical hit stuns.

That might be too simple of an algorithm for my tastes.

So on bosses, the Frankenstunner is slightly worse than the baseline monk at stripping legendary resists fast. Less Ki, and less stripped/round, and similar Ki cost to try it.

On non-bosses the Frankenstunner exceeds the standard monk, but can't pick when to do it. They get the 0.81 free stuns/round.

So maybe on a critical hit, you can spend a Ki forcing disadvantage, and if they fail you get the Ki back.

That makes saving and spending Ki for a critical hit a more interesting problem than making it worse than the other options.

 

[TwoSix]

I'm tempted to make Stunning Strike be 1/round, and impose disadvantage if you triggered it on a critical hit.

That both reduces the desire to have a huge pile of Ki to spam it on a boss, and leaves more room for more features elsewhere. The critical-disadvantage also encourages saving it for a key moment.

I might allow you to use it on a critical hit even if you did it earlier actually, instead of or in addition to the disadvantage. Makes it more fun.

Actually... make it ki-free on a critical hit and disadvantage on the check. That is fun. (It might over-encourage half-elf champion 3/monk 5 elven accuracy builds? Or Hex 1/Samurai 3/Monk 5. But if the worst that happens if my players do creative and unique charop...)

I'd prefer making an alternate class feature to replace Stunning Strike entirely. I'd be interested if it was Ki-free, 1/SR, and no-save. Add a real control aspect to it.

 

[auburn2]

Wizards can lock down far more targets, with the same or better odds of success. The single round of stun makes it sub-optimal in terms of lock down options given there are lots of multi-round lockdowns in the game.

 

[auburn2]

The Monk has one overpowered ability, which is relatively boring to use (for literally everyone involved, including the DM!) and benefits the rest of the party rather than them, so the fact that otherwise they're a bit dubious is ignored. I don't discount Stunning Strike, note, it is highly effective in a lot of situations, but it is boring, and the fact that exists stops the Monk from being balanced properly so it should probably be removed entirely (yeah, yeah I can hear the wails, mostly from people who don't play Monks but love hitting stunned targets, from here) and the Monk rebalanced accordingly.

I find this argument weak. You could say the same about a Rogue's sneak attack or a GWM/PAM fighter being boring.

Monk's in my experience are the least boring non-caster in combat.

 

[Mort]

Not generally as effectively or often as a monk can.

The only spell available at mid-level that will lock down multiple enemies and not allow saves every turn is hypnotic pattern. It is a powerful spell and while it can affect a lot of enemies for a turn or two, they are only charmed until the first attack hits them or until one of their allies shakes them out of it (which will usually happen). This means that your party members will at maximum get a single attack that hits a charmed enemy ... and that attack is not even made with advantage. On top of that a ton of enemies are immune to charm and thereby completely immune to this spell. Finally a wizard has to use a whole action for this and can only do it once a turn.

Stunning strike on the other hand lasts the entire rest of the turn it is started on through the Monk's entire next turn. As many allies as you have can attack the stunned enemies and all of those attacks are with advantage. They can't move and nothing short of a wish can end their stunned condition early. On top of that very few enemies are immune to stun and a monk can make up to 4 stunning attacks in one round (or attack one opponent with it 4 times if he keeps saving).

With 18 ki points per day, a 6th level Monk is typically going to affect more opponents than the 4 3rd-level spells a 6th level wizard gets per day.

I don't think you want to be comparing lockdown ability of a wizard and a monk. Lockdown is battlefield control and a wizard absolutely excels at that - to a degree a monk cannot match.

Let's start with this:

A wizard excels at battlefield control starting at level 1 with spells like sleep.

Monks signature ability, their big gun and supposedly biggest contribution - not until level 5 (halfway through the life cycle of the average campaign) - that's just not great design!

Note: I'm not arguing Monks suck (certainly not before level 11) - I'm just saying they cannot readily compete with the wizards schtick of controlling multiple opponents during a combat.

Sure if there's one big bad (post level 5) and the monk wants him stunned (or to use up his legendary resistances) no class can do that better - but that's just too specific a schtick!