D&D 5E Comparing Monk DPR

[Chaosmancer]

It would be entirely reasonable for a magic glaive that gave the wielder Extra Attack, didn't require martial proficiency, and used your spell ability mod instead of STR to require attunement.

Which is far more than what the Bracers do. I mean, dang, a full extra attack? That's crazy good.

Using spells isn't something that is unique to one or two classes, either, yet items that allow non-magical classes to cast spells frequently require attunement. In fact, spells are one of the most common class features in the game.

They require attunement because of power. Being able to sling six fireballs a day is far far more powerful than +2 AC. That is six 3rd level slots of power.

Yes, class features entitle you to all kinds of things without attunement. That's why they're class features. I don't really understand what your argument here is. Are you arguing that if several classes can do something, a magic item that lets anybody do that shouldn't require attunement?

But, we just established that items that let you cast spells require attunement. Even for wizards and sorcerers. In fact, those items are generally restricted even further and only usable by those classes.

So, what about "I can wear armor" justifies getting a +2 AC for no attunement that can stack, while not wearing armor means that you have to have an unstackable attunement based item?

Yes, magic items that essentially give you access to class features you otherwise don't have often require attunement.

Wrong.

Okay, so if you're a monk, and you find +2 studded leather armor, wear it and see how having disadvantage on all attacks goes for you. Or, if you don't think attuning to Bracers of Defense is worthwhile, because you feel your 17 AC is more than enough fine, sell them for gold. Or give them to a beggar.

"If you think this item sucks, why don't you try ruining your class or throwing it away" I mean, it isn't like we can rewrite the item...

Oh wait. We can.

See, arguing that we should rewrite the rules of then game, generally is hard to counter by claiming that you can just play by the rules anyways. See, we don't use the Bracers of Defense. That's why I advocate for changing them, because I would like to use them, but they suck as written.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Which is far more than what the Bracers do. I mean, dang, a full extra attack? That's crazy good.

No, that's not "far more than what the Bracers do." +2 to AC is just as good at 20th level as at 1st. By contrast, if you don't get Extra Attack, having a magic melee weapon that does 1d10 damage is weak at 5th level and utterly worthless at 11th.

The equivalent offensive item to BoD would be a magic weapon that
a) doesn't require martial proficiency
b) doesn't require STR
c) has damage output that scales as you level

They require attunement because of power. Being able to sling six fireballs a day is far far more powerful than +2 AC.

Six fireballs? A Ring of Spell Storing allows anyone to cast, for example, one Fireball and a Scorching Ray once per day. It requires attunement.

So, what about "I can wear armor" justifies getting a +2 AC for no attunement that can stack, while not wearing armor means that you have to have an unstackable attunement based item?

Same reason "I can use weapons" justifies getting hit & damage bonuses to your attacks from magic weapons, while "I don't use weapons" doesn't. Bracers of Defense aren't armor. That's what makes Bracers of Defense special. Yes. Not being able to wear armor by definition means anything that acts as armor for you is rare, special, and magical.

Wrong.

Examples?

See, arguing that we should rewrite the rules of then game, generally is hard to counter by claiming that you can just play by the rules anyways. See, we don't use the Bracers of Defense. That's why I advocate for changing them, because I would like to use them, but they suck as written.

Really? Like, when your group has found them in campaigns, you've thrown them away?

 

[Chaosmancer]

No, that's not "far more than what the Bracers do." +2 to AC is just as good at 20th level as at 1st. By contrast, if you don't get Extra Attack, having a magic melee weapon that does 1d10 damage is weak at 5th level and utterly worthless at 11th.

The equivalent offensive item to BoD would be a magic weapon that
a) doesn't require martial proficiency
b) doesn't require STR
c) has damage output that scales as you level

I'm sorry, maybe I misunderstood you.

You are taking a character with one attack, and doubling it, correct? That is exactly what Barbarians, Paladins and Rangers get. In fact, that is THE martial feature. Only fighters do it better.

And, depending on how the item was phrased, you could have meant "they make an additional attack" and that is basically just a free Haste Action. Never seen people at 11th level say that Haste was worthless.

So, how is that worthless to basically turn a wizard into a fighter? Or a Sorcerer into a Ranger? Or a Warlock into a Barbarian? Heck, an extra attack was a good enough feature for a 6th level spell. And if it allowed an 11th level fighter to make 4 attacks, I don't think I need to explain how quickly anyone would grab it.

And, to look at your new item... no, that wouldn't be as good. Because you know what also doesn't require martial proficiency, strength, and scales in damage output as you level? Every single attack cantrip in the game. If this item suddenly was attunement for +int mod to a melee firebolt cantrip, it would be far worse.

Six fireballs? A Ring of Spell Storing allows anyone to cast, for example, one Fireball and a Scorching Ray once per day. It requires attunement.

And a wand of Fireballs also requires attunement, and can cast six fireballs.
A staff of Fire can cast three fireballs, along with other spells, and requires attunement

A Necklace of Fireballs is the only one that doesn't require attunement, and it is a limited use item, like potion.

And. let us not pretend that the Ring of Spell Storing only allows for a single fireball. It allows for a single spell. Which is vastly more powerful.

Same reason "I can use weapons" justifies getting hit & damage bonuses to your attacks from magic weapons, while "I don't use weapons" doesn't. Bracers of Defense aren't armor. That's what makes Bracers of Defense special. Yes. Not being able to wear armor by definition means anything that acts as armor for you is rare, special, and magical.

Great, so you can show me a non-weapon that gives the same bonuses to hit and damage as a weapon but requires attunement, right? Because that is totally a thing someone would make for all those people who can't use weapons.

Oh right, there was only ever one. The Insignia of Claws, only from an adventure, not requiring attunement, and capping at +1, while the weapons get +3. Heck, the spellcaster items from Tasha's don't even just give pluses to hit and damage, they increase Spell DC making them far more powerful and thus, attunement.

Examples?

• Periapt of Health (Paladin)
• Adamatine Armor (Spore Druid and some others)
• Bowl,, Brazier, Censer, Stone of controlling X elemental, along with the Elemental Gems (Any spellcaster with summon, like a Warlock with their Eldritch invocation)
• Broom of Flying, Winged Boots, and Flying Carpet (multiple casters and Dragon Sorcerers)
• Cape of the Mountebank (mid-level wizard for Dimension Door)
• Chime of Opening (low level wizard for Knock)
• Circlet of Blasting (scorching ray)
• Cubic Gate (Gate spell and Plane Shift Spell)
• Deck of Illusions (Major Image)
• Driftglobe (light or Daylight)
• Goggle of Night (Gloomstalker and Twilight Cleric)
• Helm of Comprehend Languages (comprehend Languages)
• Reincarnation Dust (Reincarnate, form Explorer's Guide to Wildmount)

A handful of others, but I think this makes a pretty big point. Even if quite a few of these are just spells... access to spells is a class feature, just like proficiency in armor. You said that yourself.

Really? Like, when your group has found them in campaigns, you've thrown them away?

No, like no DM has bothered to even give them to us. And the one time I considered giving them to a player, they asked for something else, because the bonus wasn't worth attunement.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I'm sorry, maybe I misunderstood you.

You are taking a character with one attack, and doubling it, correct? That is exactly what Barbarians, Paladins and Rangers get. In fact, that is THE martial feature. Only fighters do it better.

Wearing armor is a martial feature, too. You're engaging in special pleading when it comes to armor. Basically, there are lots of common class features, such as casting spells, making an Extra Attack, and so on that you agree would justify an attunement slot where some magic item grant these to a class that ordinarily couldn't access them...but you want an exception to armor. It seems your thinking that AC-boosting items are just some sort of "standard item" that everyone should have access to, but this is wrong in 5e. They were in 4e, but 5e isn't 4e. I don't know if they were in 3.5, but then, 5e isn't 3.5, either. Clearly, from what's in the books, the whole point of not being able to use armor is you don't have easy access to to increasing your AC.

Wizards, monks, and sorcs do not ordinarily have access to armor. AFAIK, every magic item that allows them increase AC (Ring of Protection, Cloak of Protection, Bracers of Defense) requires attunement. Because they can't wear armor. Thus, any item that acts as armor for them is special.

You seem to get sidetracked in your arguments a lot, too. The precise details on how write the item description for a hypothetical INT-attacking glaive that lets a wizard be more Fighter-y is pretty much irrelevant to the point, which is this: It's reasonable for items that let you break outside of your intrinsic class limits to require attunement.

You have not refuted this central point, and largely don't address it, preferring to chase rabbit trails instead. And really, how can you even argue against this? You can't argue that monks have access to armor. They don't. You can't argue that AC-boosting items are normally classified as "armor." They are. You can't argue that WotC was inconsistent in making magical items that act like armor, but bypass armor restrictions, require attunement. Because they were consistent.

And. let us not pretend that the Ring of Spell Storing only allows for a single fireball. It allows for a single spell. Which is vastly more powerful.

A ring of spell storing can hold multiple spells as long as the sum of their levels is less than or equal to 5.

Great, so you can show me a non-weapon that gives the same bonuses to hit and damage as a weapon but requires attunement, right?

Rod of the Pact Keeper. Wand of the War Mage.

 

[auburn2]

We tend to have way more magic items than that. Heck, we have more than 3 magic items generally by level 8. You guys have taken a mild recommendation and treated it like scripture.

No we treat what the rulebooks say as rules or at least guidelines.

And, do you not realize how hard it is to take an hour rest during an adventure? That is not a trivial thing, compared to a single action outside of combat. Since you see actions and hand swapping as such a big deal, an hour is enough time to use your action to equip or unequip your shield 600 times.

A lot easier than taking 5-weeks of research to find and buy a suit of studded +1. RAW you should have several short rests in an adventuring day.

We don't play official campaigns. We rarely get downtime (something I don't like), they generally don't charge food, and if they do it is a few silvers, while we can get multiple gold from a single encounter. Transportation is called "walking" and that's free. Food on the road is generally hand-waved because getting enough food to last is trivial.

If you aren't paying for food you are going to have more money than you should. If you do not take downtime there is no possible way you can find a specific magic item you want RAW (other than potions and scrolls).

And, no one ever buys spellbooks. We've rarely seen spell books or spell scrolls ever.

I guess you don't play wizards .... which explains why you don't see bladesingers.

We still tend to pool money, but we also strip enemies of anything valuable and generally have a character or two who is a sorcerer or a monk or something and doesn't need any money for gear, so we do consolidate funds.

I guess you don't cast spells that require valuable components either.

IF the door was unlocked, I don't see why it wouldn't be fairly guaranteed, these aren't modern doors. And the point was simply that you could do it with no hands. Or, you know, walk around with your sword sheathed, so that when you open the door, you can then draw your sword on your turn.

You don't see why you would automatically kick in nor why that would be an action? Really?

And what in the environment is worth interacting with? And, I have no idea what you mean by the door opening and closing before and after initiative. Once a door is open, it is open.

The door. "environment" is the term used in the players handbook. The door opens every time someone opens and closes it. You open it and go through it, the wizard .... er excuse me sorcerer ... behind you fires off a spell and closes it so BBEG can't target him, the monk opens it and goes through and attacks etc, etc, etc. As long as everyone has a free hand they can take an action in addition to opening and closing the door,

You see some grand problem, I see "I can't attack until my turn" which is... how the rules work.

No you can't attack on your turn if you opened the door and then drew your weapon. No instead of using an action to draw your weapon you could run up and puch the bad guy for 1 point of damage. If you had your weapon in one hand you could open the door and attack, both on your turn.

There is no such thing as a "cross class focus"

Sword Bard

War Caster

Ruby of the War Mage

So, let me just take a quick look at all the casters who can natively use shields. Druids? They can use a staff as their focus, no problem with shield and weapon. Cleric and Paladin? Shield is their focus. Warlock? Hexblade as mentioned.

To start with a warcaster can not use a weapon as a focus unleess he is a hex blade, or as you mentionoed a sword bard, at which point warcaster is partially wasted.

Ruby of the warmage is a magic item.

Yeah a sword of college bard, a hexblade and a druid if he uses a staff and not another weapon. Two subclasses and one class if he uses a specific weapon.

So, maybe we are talking Eldritch Knights, Valor Bards and Rangers. They might struggle, and they can all take Warcaster, or use spells that are only verbal, or whose component is a weapon.

No we are talking about all bards except sword bards, all warlocks except hexblades with an invocation, all Druids who don't use a staff, all wizards, all Rangers and all sorcorers

If you have a 15 strength, there is no speed penalty. You also can easily carry it with encumbrance. Also, most characters investing in strength like this start at level 1 with a 16 strength.

Most strength fighters, Barbarians, Paladins and strength Rangers. Not most others.

Half Plate with a feat is 18 AC. Shield makes that 20

Sure, if you have a 16 Dexterity.

Monks need a 20 Dex and 16 Wisdom, or a 20/20 to match those numbers with no armor. That takes more than a single ASI.

For an optimized Monk it takes 1.5 ASIs using point by, so it is doable by 8th level with an ASI and a half feat. By 12th level they have the heavy armor guy beat and he will never catch back up without magic ... and they are doing this while having both no penalty to stealth and having dodge available as a bonus action multiple times a day.

They can also cost gold. That is why they have a gold cost listed in the book.

Sure, they can do anything your DM wants, but "the book" does not list a gold cost for magic items. The DMG says they are not available for purchase, XGE lists a process to get them which involves WEEKS of research (i.e. sweat)

And, man, you realize how trivial weight is in DnD? Like, seriously, you want to say studded leather is heavier, but it is 13 lbs. That is nothing for basically any character I have ever seen. Even a Strength 8 rogue can carry 90 lbs with no issue.

The weight penalty is a bigger "cost" than the attunement penalty. There are more Rgoues out there walking around encumbered right now than there are Monks attuned to three items.

Attunement number is limited, carrying capacity is limited, you are far, far more likely to exceed the latter than you are the former, so logically you should wear bracers over studded if you can.

Maybe higher than you, but so what. I've never seen an issue with handidness or encumberance, but I sure have seen issues with attunement. Maybe you need to consider that your game might not be the norm.

I have seen completely the opposite and your game is full of sword and board fighters you are running out of hands in combat a lot if you are playing RAW. If your DM is hand waving that ..... well it explains it.

No, it isn't. People don't just wear items because they can. And DM's don't just give out items because they can. "This is my pajama armor" isn't a no-brainer, it is completely ludicrous.

DMs don't typically "give out" items. They are typically found on enemies, in dungeons etc. If your character finds and has BOD, it would be foolish not to wear them (at least until you could sell them).

Especially since, again, you can wear light armor to bed with no issue, so you can do this with magical studded leather armor just as easily. And that is a no-brainer, since it doesn't require attunement.

Why would you wear armor to bed ... or at all when you could get the same AC without wearing it? That is just foolish.

Because attunement is limited.

Which is almost never and issue and when it becomes an issue you can get some studded armor.

The Bracers are Rare, meaning you don't expect to see them until 12 level or so. Studded Leather armor is dirt common, in any city you care to visit, probably a lot of towns too. So, why wait an additional 8 levels for your pajama armor?

I am not suggesting you should wait to get bracers so you don't need studded. I am suggesting that if you have bracers you should use them and throw your studded in the trash. If you find magic studded use that (or of you take 3 months off to find and buy some), but until you do that you are as good as you will get as a Rogue with BOD .... better even because you are lighter.

I would absolutely love the enemy to drop his weapon to pick up mine.

Yeah, because being without your weapon is a great situation

Also, if they are close enough to get into melee range with me... why did I drop my weapon instead of... getting into melee range to attack them? That seems incredibly bizarre and makes no sense, If I can make attacks and defeat the enemy, I think I'd do that first.

Yes, like you said you will do that FIRST and then drop your weapon so you will have a free hand .... at which point he can pick it up. You are the one who said this is a viable strategy every trun, not me.

I don't see a whole lot of dex-fighters. If a cleric is getting heavy armor they are going to want that 15 to get full plate. The AC is just too good and too valuable.

I see a whole lot of dex fighters and there have even been threads on this board asking why anyone would be a strength fighter. As far as I can remember, I have never played with a cleric at the table that had a 15 strength. Usually they are going to invest in wisdom, constitution, dexterity or charisma first as these are a lot more useful.

 

[auburn2]

PC has 3 attuned items and the party finds a 4th item that would make sense for that PC to use, but that requires them to give up one of their already attuned items? That happens a lot.

I asked for an example. I mean "character class X with items A, B, C and D all requiring attunment at 6th level."

Almost all have in my experience - and I've played with a lot of DMs. It makes no sense to not have a market economy for highly useful magic items that are hard to destroy.

Well that is not RAW.

What? You're adventuring under the BIGGEST markets in all of Faerun... you're encouraged to go back and forth to the surface in DotMM.

I said that is the one adventure that it would not have derailed. It still would have taken weeks or months to find a specific magic item because that is what is in the rules.

There are multiple NPCs that want to interact with you on the surface. Plenty of opportunity to stop and shop.......and you can hire someone to put in that week of work.

Ok, in ROF and TOA you can't even buy mundane, normal items at most cities and towns but there is "plenty of time to stop and shop" for magic items? By the way in TOA, people literally die with every day you delay.

A couple of these campaigns I have also DMed (POA, DOMM) and in those I have found nothing in the book that waived the time or methodology required to find a magic item.

Read the rest of the paragraph - in a campaign world that is full of adventurers and high magic (Faerun is known historically for being HIGH MAGIC and full of powerful adventurers - as opposed to a setting like Greyhawk) it is like buying fine art. Where do all the official WotC modules take place?

Yes, like buying fine art! NOT like walking in to Wallmart and buying wall art. Have you ever shopped for fine art? Think about what you just said and imagine you want to buy a real Picasso or Monet. Picasso or Monet would be probably Rare, Very Rare for a special piece. Think about what that is going to take to pull off! Next imagine you want a piece of Legendary artwork, like the Mona Lisa or the Venus De Milo. Imagine what kind of effort it would take to buy that!

Everyone has different RPG experience, but in almost every game I've played through 40+ years of D&D, there was a market for magic items. Sometimes it was easily accessible and open - other times invitation only. Sometimes only through brokers, others involved walking up to a stall at the marketplace.

Ok but that is not RAW in either 1E or 5E. I am not fluent in the other variants to know.

And let us not forget that it is also relatively easy for a PC with downtime and resources to be able to build magic items. It might require a quest to do so, but making low power items at medium and higher level is trivial if you have the time.

RAW It takes 7 months for a 6th level character to create +1 armor. That is AFTER they have the formula and materials. In 40 years of playing D&D I don't think I ever had a campaign with 7 months of downtime. If they use XGE it is less but they have to quest for the materials.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Really, just drop the attunement and don't let it stack with Mage Armor so that casters can't abuse it, leave it for mostly Monks and unarmored Barbarians. For everyone else it's just Studded Leather.

 

[Chaosmancer]

For people following the conversation, I am not ignoring Fearsomepirate. When I got on this morning, all text of theirs disappeared. I know they responded to me because I checked a seperate browser to see if this was because I was blocked or if there was an issue with the site that I should report.

Normally, I don't comment on people blocking me, I feel that is rude, but I also think it would be rude to simply ignore someone when they respond to you, and I don't want it to appear like I did so. I get enough flak from people as is. And I am not going to respond to their final points, because that would also be rude, in my opinion.

 

[auburn2]

NM

 

[Chaosmancer]

No we treat what the rulebooks say as rules or at least guidelines.

Well, you keep responding with "a character of that level can't have that many items" as though a minor guideline buried in Xanathar's is dictating limits. Amusingly, the games with the fewest magical items tend to be the ones where we are homebrewing. We get a lot more when playing pre-written adventures.

A lot easier than taking 5-weeks of research to find and buy a suit of studded +1. RAW you should have several short rests in an adventuring day.

I'm not sure why you think the 5-weeks (theoretical) of looking for the studded leather matters when comparing the attunement time. That is a complete non-sequiter. After you have the item, it takes 1 minute to put on, and since most people don't strip out of their armor during adventures, it is usually a non-issue. Also, I note how this went from "it is shorter to take a six-second action to put on a shield than an hour to attune to an item" to "But an hour is shorter than the five weeks it takes you to find the armor". That doesn't disprove my shield argument in the slightest.

RAW suggests two short rests, but that is far from guaranteed. In fact, this is a commonly discussed problem on these threads. But, even if you have the recommended two short rests, that still doesn't allow you to swap items mid-combat. Yes, it takes an action, but I could pull out a shield in the middle of combat if I needed to. I can't take an hour rest in the middle of combat if I needed to.

If you aren't paying for food you are going to have more money than you should. If you do not take downtime there is no possible way you can find a specific magic item you want RAW (other than potions and scrolls).

I believe the money issue has been addressed repeatedly at this point. Looking at the individual treasure table you can expect 1 to 5 gold on CR less than 4 creatures. That is not including their equipment, which can be sold. A single shortsword can be sold for 5 gp. 5 gold is going to be able to buy you between 10 and 50 meals, and that is if the inn price doesn't include a meal, which generally our DM has the inn price cover food and drink.

This isn't a large expense that we are talking about here.

I guess you don't play wizards .... which explains why you don't see bladesingers.

We've had a few wizards. Not many, and the DM rarely gives out spellbooks either way

I guess you don't cast spells that require valuable components either.

Most spells don't require them, so that would make sense, wouldn't it?

I'm going to guess that you don't drive a Ferrari while wearing a Rollex. Most people don't, so that is a good guess.

You don't see why you would automatically kick in nor why that would be an action? Really?

No, I was saying I don't see why kicking in an unlocked door would require a roll. It didn't require a roll to turn the door handle, why would it require a roll to make a more dramatic entrance?

The door. "environment" is the term used in the players handbook. The door opens every time someone opens and closes it. You open it and go through it, the wizard .... er excuse me sorcerer ... behind you fires off a spell and closes it so BBEG can't target him, the monk opens it and goes through and attacks etc, etc, etc. As long as everyone has a free hand they can take an action in addition to opening and closing the door,

Yeah, we don't bother with that.

The wizard or sorcerer fires a spell... then uses their movement to move around the corner so the BBEG can't target them. We don't need to bother with opening and closing it all the time, it is just extra noise for no real purpose.

No you can't attack on your turn if you opened the door and then drew your weapon. No instead of using an action to draw your weapon you could run up and puch the bad guy for 1 point of damage. If you had your weapon in one hand you could open the door and attack, both on your turn.

Right, but you aren't seeing the scenario.

The Fighter looks over the group, they are ready, he opens the door. Villains are in the room. We roll initiative. The Monk runs in (because they have higher initiative) then the fighter takes their turn.

The Fighter didn't open the door this turn. They couldn't have, it is impossible, because the monk took their entire turn. So, either you are penalizing the fighter for taking an action before their turn, or it is a new turn and the fighter has all of their actions. So they draw their sword and charge in.

In this scenario, there is no problem with having your sword sheathed, the only thing is does is prevent you from attacking before your turn, which you can't do anyways.

To start with a warcaster can not use a weapon as a focus unleess he is a hex blade, or as you mentionoed a sword bard, at which point warcaster is partially wasted.

Ruby of the warmage is a magic item.

Yeah a sword of college bard, a hexblade and a druid if he uses a staff and not another weapon. Two subclasses and one class if he uses a specific weapon.

What does being a magic item mean? Does it not count just because it is an item? That seems kind of silly.

I mis-remembered on War Caster, is just lets you use Somatic Components, which is still generally enough, but that was my mistake.

And, note that Staffs are good weapons for the druid, very very little reason to use anything else. So, two subclasses, one class, and then two other classes if they happen to get shields, maybe three, I can't remember if Artificers get arcane focuses.

So, that is more than a few.

No we are talking about all bards except sword bards, all warlocks except hexblades with an invocation, all Druids who don't use a staff, all wizards, all Rangers and all sorcerers

Except, there is a second consideration. If they don't want a melee weapon, they can still use their focus. Any warlock who puts on a shield can then use their rod in the other hand.

So, you need a class that can use a shield, wants to use a shield, wants to use a weapon, but either also wants to cast spells that have material components or doesn't take warcaster.

That is a pretty narrow field. And, again, staves are pretty good weapon choices, and if they want to be casters... they likely would just be using cantrips anyways.

Most strength fighters, Barbarians, Paladins and strength Rangers. Not most others.

Yeah, you just listed most martial characters who have access to heavy armor and shields. So.. most of them would be fine with needing a 15 strength.

The only one that might get a little MAD is the Cleric, but again, that is a good trade for the cleric anyways.

Sure, if you have a 16 Dexterity.

Which again, if that is your build, say if you are a Dexterity based ranger, that isn't too hard to get. if you are planning on getting Medium Armor Mastery... then you are planning on having or getting a +3 to take advantage of that feat. Why on earth would you take a feat you can't utilize?

For an optimized Monk it takes 1.5 ASIs using point by, so it is doable by 8th level with an ASI and a half feat. By 12th level they have the heavy armor guy beat and he will never catch back up without magic ... and they are doing this while having both no penalty to stealth and having dodge available as a bonus action multiple times a day.

Huh?

Point buy maxes at 15. Optimization would be Wood Elf I guess, that gets you 17 and 16 (which isn't optimized in my opinion, but whatever) A single ASI gets you 18 and 17... which isn't 20/20. A half feat gets you 18/18... which is 18 AC. The EXACT same as Platemail. (Or they could get 20/16 which is better but also still just an 18 AC)

A mid-level fighter with plate and shield has 20 AC, so I don't know what you could possibly mean by a heavy armor character never catching up without magic. The Monk hasn't even caught up to the HEavy Armor guy yet. They need another 2 feats. It is 3.5 ASIs minimum. Which is 16th level.

And sure, no penalty to stealth. That is a big factor in wearing heavy armor, but since the baseline Monk can NEVER exceed that AC without magic, and the Fighter could easily have 21 without magic, that is an opportunity cost.

Sure, they can do anything your DM wants, but "the book" does not list a gold cost for magic items. The DMG says they are not available for purchase, XGE lists a process to get them which involves WEEKS of research (i.e. sweat)

Rarity	Character Level	Value
Common	1st or higher	50–100 gp
Uncommon	1st or higher	101–500 gp
Rare	5th or higher	501–5,000 gp
Very rare	11th or higher	5,001–50,000 gp
Legendary	17th or higher	50,001+ gp

The weight penalty is a bigger "cost" than the attunement penalty. There are more Rgoues out there walking around encumbered right now than there are Monks attuned to three items.


Attunement number is limited, carrying capacity is limited, you are far, far more likely to exceed the latter than you are the former, so logically you should wear bracers over studded if you can.

Probably not, but maybe. Also, again, encumberance is a trivially easy problem to solve. Unless your DM specifically goes out of their way to overencumber you, then it really doesn't come up.

But the opportunity cost of these Rare items with attunement worth as much as 5,000 gold being only better than mundane, dirt cheap armor because of weight, if you are worried about encumberance... doesn't that just say it all?

I have seen completely the opposite and your game is full of sword and board fighters you are running out of hands in combat a lot if you are playing RAW. If your DM is hand waving that ..... well it explains it.

OR, and this is the truth, the handidness just doesn't come up because it is a solved problem. You have still not shown anything except opening doors that seems like it would be any issue, and we don't tend to open new doors until the fight is over.

DMs don't typically "give out" items. They are typically found on enemies, in dungeons etc. If your character finds and has BOD, it would be foolish not to wear them (at least until you could sell them).

Dude... you realize that the DM put them in the dungeon for you to find right? That is what "give out" means. I'm not saying a little gnome in red robes handed them to us out of his magic sack, but if the DM doesn't place the items for us to find... there is nothing to find.

Why would you wear armor to bed ... or at all when you could get the same AC without wearing it? That is just foolish.

Attunement slots
5,000 gold price tag
I can do it from level 1 to 3, instead of waiting til level 5 or higher

I mean, you are the one so worried about being attacked while you sleep that you will use an attunement slot on an item that is utterly worthless to you in any other possible situation, so why not start protecting yourself from the beginning instead of hoping for a magical set of non-armor?

Which is almost never and issue and when it becomes an issue you can get some studded armor.

Think about that for a second. If attunement becomes an issue, you can replace a rare magic item with mundane, low level armor.

Doesn't that make the item seem... kind of worthless?

I am not suggesting you should wait to get bracers so you don't need studded. I am suggesting that if you have bracers you should use them and throw your studded in the trash. If you find magic studded use that (or of you take 3 months off to find and buy some), but until you do that you are as good as you will get as a Rogue with BOD .... better even because you are lighter.

Which seems rather silly, when the BoD are worth a heck of a lot more, and are more useful as a bargaining chip or emergency wealth stash than being used for their intended use.

Yeah, because being without your weapon is a great situation

They didn't attack me, and I can just grab their weapon. Or my backup weapon that I dropped my first weapon to get out. Heck yes that is a great situation. If I can get the enemy to waste a turn I'm doing great.

Yes, like you said you will do that FIRST and then drop your weapon so you will have a free hand .... at which point he can pick it up. You are the one who said this is a viable strategy every trun, not me.

I said "If for some reason", so give me the reason? You are the one who keeps insisting people need free hands all the time in combat, so what do I need that free hand for? Personally, we almost never drop our weapons, because there is no reason to have a free hand.

I see a whole lot of dex fighters and there have even been threads on this board asking why anyone would be a strength fighter. As far as I can remember, I have never played with a cleric at the table that had a 15 strength. Usually they are going to invest in wisdom, constitution, dexterity or charisma first as these are a lot more useful.

shrug

I think charisma is pretty worthless for a cleric. And Dex is easily dropped in favor of using that heavy armor and getting strength. Con and Wisdom are important though.

And, I've seen those threads, but they often do downplay just how hard to hit a sword and board fighter can be. A strength based fighter with a rapier and Defensive Duelist can pretty trivially hit 24 AC on an attack per turn. No magic, just a reaction. Makes for a solid tank.