Comparison: Strongholds & Dynasties - Empire - Magical Medieval Society - Birthright

[mattcolville]

I want to mention a oversight in the FoB credits. My friend Jim Murphy was integral to the core design of the book. His experience, not only with wargaming, but fantasy wargaming over the last 30 years was invaluable and, if FoB has any qualities that set it above the rest of the pack, I suspect they're probably a result of Jim's insight.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I tried to ask this question in its own thread, but didn't any replies - so now I'm asking this here:

I'm looking for domain rules for Fading Suns d20. Fading Suns is a science fiction universe, but most of humanity lives in a feudal society just like in the middle ages, so much of the rules in these books should be applicable. To my mind, the most useful rules should cover the following:

- I don't need any rules for integrating D&D magic into a kingdom, since Fading Suns doesn't have them (psychic and theurgic powers exist, but these are much weaker and have much less of an impact on society). However, some high tech survives in the Fading Suns era - from modern-day guns, radios, and computers all the way to starships. Most people will never see one of those, or even own them - but they are available to the ruling nobles, or at least the richer among them. So it should at least be possible to take technology into account with the domain rules...

- The nobles aren't the only power base out there - there is also the Universal Church of the Celestial Sun, the only legal religion in the Known Worlds. But this faith is splintered into multiple sects, and its bishops and priests also scheme for temporal power that can be every bit as vicious as the schemes of the nobles at times. So some sort of system that measures the worldly influence of religions and religious figures would be great (though not mystical power - though some priests can be powerful occultists, it is ultimately the faith of millions of believers that gives the Church its power, and not the arcane workings of some eccentric members...).

- And then there are the Guilds, mercantile organisations which each have monopolies over certain pieces of tech. They can get fabulously wealthy, and though they own next to no land and few people really like them, they can have tremendous influence by merely threatening a boycott against an offending noble or priest... Some sort of trade system, preferably one that can be used independently of existing power bases (such as noble fiefs) would be very useful...

So, which book would you recommend for this?

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I am impressed with the thread, and thanks for all the analysis and commentary. I would be curious if you could do a similar review of the domain management/mass combat rules that came with the OD&D boxes, in comparison to all the d20 systems out there.


Regards,
Eric Anondson

 

[Silveras]

Originally, the scale of FoB was 1 hex = 24 miles, as that jives with the overland movement rules. It may be worth revisiting the decision to scale it down to 12 miles for any revision we do.

Interesting. Wasn't 24 miles the size used in some late 1st edition AD&D products, and some "Basic" D&D products ?

My main map is done at 1"=30 miles without a grid. The larger regional maps are at 1"=90 miles. I adopted the TSR standard of using a clear gridded sheet to overlay when I needed movement, but to avoid the "blocky" look of gridded maps as much as I could.

 

[mattcolville]

Interesting. Wasn't 24 miles the size used in some late 1st edition AD&D products, and some "Basic" D&D products ?

Probably. When my friend Jim and I sat down in our first design session, and I said "How big should a hex be?" he said, without hesitating, "20 miles." His rationale: it's about a day's journey. When he said this, I whipped out the 3.0 PHB, and saw that they felt 24 miles was more correct.

 

[Silveras]

I tried to ask this question in its own thread, but didn't any replies - so now I'm asking this here:

I'm looking for domain rules for Fading Suns d20. Fading Suns is a science fiction universe, but most of humanity lives in a feudal society just like in the middle ages, so much of the rules in these books should be applicable. To my mind, the most useful rules should cover the following:

- I don't need any rules for integrating D&D magic into a kingdom, ... to take technology into account with the domain rules...

- The nobles aren't the only power base out there - there is also the Universal Church of the Celestial Sun, ...).

- And then there are the Guilds, mercantile organisations ... Some sort of trade system, preferably one that can be used independently of existing power bases (such as noble fiefs) would be very useful...

So, which book would you recommend for this?

The problem is that most of these works assume a level of technology that is roughly medieval, or at most renaissance. Variation is tech levels is not a key factor in most of these books, as they are written primarily for the default setting, where technological differences are slight.

That being said, you may be best off ignoring technology anyway. If it is not widespread enough to change the lifestyles of the people, it is probably not common enough to impact the domain management rules. You may get some mileage from comparing the few pieces of very high tech with the treatment of magic in each work.

Having said that, Birthright is the only one of these works that really presents Religion and Trade Guilds as you have described. Unfortunately, its whole system is balanced around the concept of Bloodline Strength, and much is tied to Cerilia specifically.

MMS:WE has a section on dividing the power in a city among various factions, which could serve as a model for dividing power on a larger scale. S&D also allows for factions as an influence in the domain. Neither of those, though, allows for them to be PC-controlled.

 

[Silveras]

I am impressed with the thread, and thanks for all the analysis and commentary. I would be curious if you could do a similar review of the domain management/mass combat rules that came with the OD&D boxes, in comparison to all the d20 systems out there.

Hmm... I do have copies of them around somewhere. It may be doable.

 

[Silveras]

Psionics

Among these various systems, none addresses Psionics, even though Psionics is part of the Core rules (now).

MMS:WE - I don't know if Psionics was part of the SRD at the time it was prepared.
Empire - Psionics had been part of the SRD for a while when this was released.
S&D - ditto
FoB - ditto

Although some allow more integration of magic (FoB, S&D) than others (MMS:WE, Empire) as political forces, none address Psionics.

Personally, I am not offended; I don't like Psionics in my fantasy. However, it is worth noting, for those who do.

 

[Silveras]

The more I think about it, the more I keep returning to MMS:WE as a good model for Fading Suns. Unlike the others, the systems in MMS:WE are not predicated on defined amount of food or land as the basis for all others. Instead, it is predicated on a ratio, Population Density. You may find my PDF on tinkering with this figure (available on the Expeditious Retreat Press web site in the Community Support section) helpful in adjusting to a larger-scale domain.

 

[Grimn]

How difficult would it be to up the scale on Fields of Blood? As far as I can see, just up the scale to 1 hex = 48 or so. Then up the resource multiplier appropriately. Is there something I'm missing?


-Nathan