Comparison: Strongholds & Dynasties - Empire - Magical Medieval Society - Birthright
D&D Rules Cyclopedia
Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia - Dominions and War Machine (TSR)
Overall Impression: Very Good
Content:
Construction system: B
Domain management system (small scale) : B
Domain management system (medium scale): B (C if using Mystara/Known World)
Domain management system (large scale) : C (D if using Mystara/Known World)
City/Urban Center details: F
Trade system: F (A if using the content of GAZ 9 and GAZ 11)
Internal Realm Politics system: F
Inter-Realm Politics system: C
Resource Management system: D
Mass Combat system: B
Troop raising: C
Dynastic heritage system: N/A
D&D/Fantasy content: A
Arcane Magic Integration: C (B)
Divine Magic Integration: C (B)
The Construction system is abstract and simplified, but covers the basics. A collection of modular pieces are available, which the player uses to define the stronghold s/he wishes to build. The overall cost of the pieces defines how long is required. The system presumes building in a newly-cleared land, so the DM must adjudicate any discounts to the cost for discount circumstances. Some guidance is given on this point. The construction rules are integrated into the mass combat rules.
The Domain Management rules work on the basis of 24-mile hexes for Dominions (1 Barony). The system handles starting from 1 8-mile-hex of wilderness area to be made safe by the PC's presence, which is the standard situation. However, it also presumes that the wilderness area is located in or at least near a source of trained laborers and materials -- everything is based on the use of gold pieces.
The resource management system is simplified as well, condensing to a bonus to the base tax rate. Each Dominion (or, optionally, each hex within a Dominion) has a small number of resources that are generalized to basic categories. These resources define the bonuses to the tax rate, and ultimately resolve back to money.
The Dominion's population is measured in peasant families, which have a natural growth rate. Growth and loss are checked for on a monthly basis, which may become tedious in a long-running campaign.
Much like Strongholds & Dynasties, the system presented is very good for detailing the Dominions of a handful of PCs. Larger NPC Dominions can become more tedious to define and track.
There is no internal realm politics, really. Each main class is presumed to be able to establish its own Barony, so there is almost no provision for any other power center internal to the Dominion (tithing to a Church is about all there is).
Politics between realms is not codified for the most part. When establishing a new Dominion, there are some rules for how neighboring Dominions will react, but not much else. All diplomacy is pretty much up to the DM to handle. Because most of Mystara is mapped into one or another Greater Dominion, this area suffers more in that setting (which is why I reduced the rating -- there will be more opportunities for contact than in most homebrew campaigns, with little guidance on how to proceed).
One really good element in this system, which Birthright and MMS:WE also touch on, is vassalage. Owing fealty to a higher authority, and more specifically collecting from a lower authority, is represented in these rules.
The Mass Combat system is easy to use, but it is also abstract. It is not miniatures-oriented, nor is it miniatures-friendly. It is closer to a wargame level, taking place on the 24-mile campaign hexes only. It is more of what I consider a strategic level than a tactical one. The ability to raise and maintain troops is all based on the cash available. Although the statistics of a unit can be improved by training, there is not much information on the costs of providing ongoing training to those units. This probably stems from the origin of the Mass Combat Rules -- they came from an adventure module (X10: Red Arrow, Black Shield) which provided counters and army statistics for all the forces in the Known World setting. The system overall factors in terrain and most other expected elements, but in an abstract way that will not be useful to people who want to "attack from hill A to flank the archers on hill B".
There is no section of Trade rules in the book. However, the supplements on the Minrothad Guilds (GAZ 9) and the Republic of Darokin (GAZ 11) presented rules for sea-based and land-based merchants (respectively). These also offered special "extra classes" that may have been the inspiration for the Prestige Classes in D20.
Lastly, I gave average "grades" for the magic integration because the item creation system is very similar to standard D20 (invest XP and GP to make anything). There is no "institutional" magic use (no realm magic), but a lot of the areas in Mystara are very advanced in magic use (so, the parenthetical higher grades appy when using the Mystara setting).
Short & Sweet: For a short system (9 pages out of the book), the Dominion and Strongholds systems in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia are very strong. They lack detail in a lot of areas (resources are very lightly handled, the construction system is very lightweight), but many key elements are covered better than more comprehensive books (experience for rulership, natural population growth). The biggest drawbacks to using these systems in a d20 game are: 1) it is out of print, and 2) the "basic" D&D game has some different core elements (Dwarf and Elf are combined race-classes, power levels were different {36th level in basic D&D is/was similar to 20th level in AD&D and D20).
Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia - Dominions and War Machine (TSR)
Overall Impression: Very Good
Content:
Construction system: B
Domain management system (small scale) : B
Domain management system (medium scale): B (C if using Mystara/Known World)
Domain management system (large scale) : C (D if using Mystara/Known World)
City/Urban Center details: F
Trade system: F (A if using the content of GAZ 9 and GAZ 11)
Internal Realm Politics system: F
Inter-Realm Politics system: C
Resource Management system: D
Mass Combat system: B
Troop raising: C
Dynastic heritage system: N/A
D&D/Fantasy content: A
Arcane Magic Integration: C (B)
Divine Magic Integration: C (B)
The Construction system is abstract and simplified, but covers the basics. A collection of modular pieces are available, which the player uses to define the stronghold s/he wishes to build. The overall cost of the pieces defines how long is required. The system presumes building in a newly-cleared land, so the DM must adjudicate any discounts to the cost for discount circumstances. Some guidance is given on this point. The construction rules are integrated into the mass combat rules.
The Domain Management rules work on the basis of 24-mile hexes for Dominions (1 Barony). The system handles starting from 1 8-mile-hex of wilderness area to be made safe by the PC's presence, which is the standard situation. However, it also presumes that the wilderness area is located in or at least near a source of trained laborers and materials -- everything is based on the use of gold pieces.
The resource management system is simplified as well, condensing to a bonus to the base tax rate. Each Dominion (or, optionally, each hex within a Dominion) has a small number of resources that are generalized to basic categories. These resources define the bonuses to the tax rate, and ultimately resolve back to money.
The Dominion's population is measured in peasant families, which have a natural growth rate. Growth and loss are checked for on a monthly basis, which may become tedious in a long-running campaign.
Much like Strongholds & Dynasties, the system presented is very good for detailing the Dominions of a handful of PCs. Larger NPC Dominions can become more tedious to define and track.
There is no internal realm politics, really. Each main class is presumed to be able to establish its own Barony, so there is almost no provision for any other power center internal to the Dominion (tithing to a Church is about all there is).
Politics between realms is not codified for the most part. When establishing a new Dominion, there are some rules for how neighboring Dominions will react, but not much else. All diplomacy is pretty much up to the DM to handle. Because most of Mystara is mapped into one or another Greater Dominion, this area suffers more in that setting (which is why I reduced the rating -- there will be more opportunities for contact than in most homebrew campaigns, with little guidance on how to proceed).
One really good element in this system, which Birthright and MMS:WE also touch on, is vassalage. Owing fealty to a higher authority, and more specifically collecting from a lower authority, is represented in these rules.
The Mass Combat system is easy to use, but it is also abstract. It is not miniatures-oriented, nor is it miniatures-friendly. It is closer to a wargame level, taking place on the 24-mile campaign hexes only. It is more of what I consider a strategic level than a tactical one. The ability to raise and maintain troops is all based on the cash available. Although the statistics of a unit can be improved by training, there is not much information on the costs of providing ongoing training to those units. This probably stems from the origin of the Mass Combat Rules -- they came from an adventure module (X10: Red Arrow, Black Shield) which provided counters and army statistics for all the forces in the Known World setting. The system overall factors in terrain and most other expected elements, but in an abstract way that will not be useful to people who want to "attack from hill A to flank the archers on hill B".
There is no section of Trade rules in the book. However, the supplements on the Minrothad Guilds (GAZ 9) and the Republic of Darokin (GAZ 11) presented rules for sea-based and land-based merchants (respectively). These also offered special "extra classes" that may have been the inspiration for the Prestige Classes in D20.
Lastly, I gave average "grades" for the magic integration because the item creation system is very similar to standard D20 (invest XP and GP to make anything). There is no "institutional" magic use (no realm magic), but a lot of the areas in Mystara are very advanced in magic use (so, the parenthetical higher grades appy when using the Mystara setting).
Short & Sweet: For a short system (9 pages out of the book), the Dominion and Strongholds systems in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia are very strong. They lack detail in a lot of areas (resources are very lightly handled, the construction system is very lightweight), but many key elements are covered better than more comprehensive books (experience for rulership, natural population growth). The biggest drawbacks to using these systems in a d20 game are: 1) it is out of print, and 2) the "basic" D&D game has some different core elements (Dwarf and Elf are combined race-classes, power levels were different {36th level in basic D&D is/was similar to 20th level in AD&D and D20).
johnsemlak
First Post
I don't have it in front of me, Dynasties and Demigogues is much more of a guide to role-playing in a political envirnment, as far as I remember.
It's got lots of PC goodies like feats, spells, prestige classes, etc for players in a politcal envirnment. It has rules on political manoevers, and lots of advice for DMs and players on playing in a politcal campaign. It doesn't cover such campaign topics like Mass battles, Running Dominions (it does have info on different forms of governemtn and how they affect the campaign), or building strongholds.
It is however, a very good book.
It's got lots of PC goodies like feats, spells, prestige classes, etc for players in a politcal envirnment. It has rules on political manoevers, and lots of advice for DMs and players on playing in a politcal campaign. It doesn't cover such campaign topics like Mass battles, Running Dominions (it does have info on different forms of governemtn and how they affect the campaign), or building strongholds.
It is however, a very good book.
Byrons_Ghost
First Post
Silveras said:
I've got Dynasties. It's more a guide book for running politically-themed campaigns; it doesn't really have much in the way of mass combat or political systems rules. What your typical "Quintissential X" book is to class X, Dynasties is to politics. There's the usual feats, prestige classes, spells, and other crunch material. One nice thing is that the allow for more social mechanics, uses of charisma-based skills, etc. Good for those who want a political backdrop to adventures, but don't want PCs running kingdoms or the like.
For the GM, there's a short mystery adventure, which is fairly good for introducing new PCs to a politically-oriented campaign. Groups used to this sort of thing will find it rather simple, though. There's also systems for political campaigning and debating, but they seemed to be geared more toward a Grecian or Roman type of government. It could probably be adapted for other types of councils or quasi-democratic fantasy governments. It would probably work quite well as an internal political system for guilds, secret societies, etc.
Any other questions, feel free to ask. I loved the Companion domain rules; one of my longest-running PCs had a full-fledged dominion. From what I've read on this thread, Fields of Blood sounds like the book I'll be picking up if I ever want to introduce this to my games.
Speaking of the basic D&D world, those with Gazetters for Darokin, Glantri, or the like will find the council political rules perfect for those types of settings.
Edit: Whoops, beaten to the punch!
Last edited:
AdmundfortGeographer
Getting lost in fantasy maps
Silveras said:
Thanks Silveras! You are doing yeoman's duty on these reviews and commentary. Your ratings are pretty much what my memory of it was. After years and years playing every iteration of D&D it is remarkable how much "modestly-good-enough-the-first-time" the rules were in the OD&D.
As far as being out-of-print. True, as far as dead-tree editions. SVGames is selling the scanned .pdf version for less than $5.00. HERE
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Eric Anondson said:
Yes, I was thinking the ESD might be available. There is still nothing quite like a solid, physical book in your hands, though.
The "basic" D&D rules were full of good systems and innovative ideas. Many were borrowed for 3E (3E is more a merging of AD&D and "B"D&D than anything else). One can do a lot worse than looking to "basic" D&D for new material. The Gazetteers series, especially, offered a lot of new ideas; often, there was something new in each one.
johnsemlak
First Post
Thanks from me also for rating the Rules Cyclopedia. That's a very nice analysis, and really helps put it in perspective for someone who is considering using it in 3e.
Perhaps I don't quite understand this criticism. I see your point about establishing a barony, in say, Karameikos. However, I think the creators believed players would establish dominions in the largely wilderness (yet claimed by Thyatis) area of Norwold. In this case wouldn't that point be less significant?
johnsemlak said:
Yes, it would. Norwold is not covered much in the Rules Cyclopedia, nor in the Gazetteers (IIRC). It mostly appears in some of the Master-level adventures (again, IIRC).
What I did not make clear is that the only really defined realm interactions are vassalage (which is light, consisting of receiving payments from your vassals and making payments to your liege) and the possibility of a reaction to the establishment of a new Dominion. In the established areas of Karameikos, etc., the latter is a big issue which has little guidance beyond the initial determination of how offended the neighbors are; in Norwold, it would be less of an issue.
The results of any reaction are left to the DM to play, much as the reaction of a standard NPC encountered in a tavern or bar would be.
The mixed blessing of the D&D rules is their simplicity. The designers worked hard to keep it simple. The end result is that the systems are relatively easy to put into use, but they also do not cover the range of options of more sophisticated systems. The relative worth, then, depends on how significant a part of the campaign such systems are to be. A campaign focused on lots of realm interactions, for example, might find the Rules Cyclopedia frustrating. Another campaign, where the ruling of a Dominion is just another detail of the character's background, will likely find the same rules "just right".
On the topic of XP for rulership, it is useful to remember that characters in "basic" D&D and AD&D needed much more XP to advance a level than in 3E. The dominion system gave hundreds of thousands of XP per month to the ruler; enough to gain a level in a year or so.
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