Comparison: Strongholds & Dynasties - Empire - Magical Medieval Society - Birthright

[Silveras]

How difficult would it be to up the scale on Fields of Blood? As far as I can see, just up the scale to 1 hex = 48 or so. Then up the resource multiplier appropriately. Is there something I'm missing?


-Nathan

The Upkeep costs would have to be scaled as well, and the unit movement. I have considered that, and tried it. The numbers become... impressive. So much so that I also considered just multiplying by the ratio of the area of my provinces to a standard 12-mile-hex's area (125.28 miles). Which works, in some ways.

 

[Eosin the Red]

Silveras,

I had written off FoB - since I mainly play homebrew and Birthright and had already picked up Cry Havok and MMS. I passed on both Empire and the Mongoose one at the store since on a SINGLE GLANCE they seemed not to offer any additional to the stable I already own. Reading your review, it became apparent that FoB was the book I was looking for....Thanks for taking the time and for saving me some money.

I might post my own review in a few days.

 

[Silveras]

The Upkeep costs would have to be scaled as well, and the unit movement. I have considered that, and tried it. The numbers become... impressive. So much so that I also considered just multiplying by the ratio of the area of my provinces to a standard 12-mile-hex's area (125.28 miles). Which works, in some ways.

Ok, this is bad. I am now replying to my own posts. Isn't that one of the tests for insanity ?

Anyway ... one of the things about MMS:WE that I really like is the use of Population Density (PD). Because it is a ratio instead of a fixed number, it is independent of any mapping style. Calculating and adjusting the PD is easy: population in persons divided by area in miles. Any mapping system will work nicely. When I started looking at how to adapt MMS:WE for my converted Birthright rules, I used the PD to represent the degree of province development. Basically, starting with a PD of 30 = Province 0, every +13 PD = +1 level of province.

PD*area = Population
Population x tax rate = Income

True, this does not reflect the individual types of resources as the Manor generation system in MMS:WE does. However, since in Birthright everything is just Gold in the end, it worked pretty well. I remain convinced that a ratio like PD is the key to having a system that works with any style of map.

 

[Silveras]

Silveras,

I had written off FoB - since I mainly play homebrew and Birthright and had already picked up Cry Havok and MMS. I passed on both Empire and the Mongoose one at the store since on a SINGLE GLANCE they seemed not to offer any additional to the stable I already own. Reading your review, it became apparent that FoB was the book I was looking for....Thanks for taking the time and for saving me some money.

I might post my own review in a few days.

You're quite welcome. As always, I am pleased to know people find the thread useful.

As good as Cry Havoc is, I think to really do a campaign with war as the focus, you need the unit costs to be part of the overall resource management system. Books like FoB, Empire, and S&D, which offer integrated approaches, are superior in that way, even if the actual Mass Combat system winds up being less detailed.

 

[johnsemlak]

You're quite welcome. As always, I am pleased to know people find the thread useful.

As good as Cry Havoc is, I think to really do a campaign with war as the focus, you need the unit costs to be part of the overall resource management system. Books like FoB, Empire, and S&D, which offer integrated approaches, are superior in that way, even if the actual Mass Combat system winds up being less detailed.

Silveras

Would you be willing/able to post a similar-format review of Cry Havoc and the Miniature Handbook in regards to mass-combat?

 

[johnsemlak]

One question, and I apologize if it's been stated above.

Do any of these systems provide a system by which PCs can gain experience from running dominions, or for that matter, taking part in mass combat?

 

[JoeGKushner]

One question, and I apologize if it's been stated above.

Do any of these systems provide a system by which PCs can gain experience from running dominions, or for that matter, taking part in mass combat?

For Cry Havok, I don't recall seeing one but it's been a few months since I last used it. Haven't finished Fields of Blood yet either so I'm curious to the answer here.

In the last few Cry Havok games, I just divided the experience worth of the enemies and gave it to the units as you would normally. Skeletons vs. human warriors with a few clerics on their side do not make a pretty picture as far as the skeletons were concerned.

 

[Silveras]

Silveras

Would you be willing/able to post a similar-format review of Cry Havoc and the Miniature Handbook in regards to mass-combat?

Hmmm... good question.
A more focused comparison of the mass-combat rules would be good, but I am not sure I am the one to do it. I have been focusing, in my campaign, on domain management for a long time. I will see what I can do, but if someone with more experience using mass combat rules wants to start a similar thread on those systems, I'd be pleased.

 

[Silveras]

One question, and I apologize if it's been stated above.

Do any of these systems provide a system by which PCs can gain experience from running dominions, or for that matter, taking part in mass combat?

Strongholds & Dynasties has a small section in the Mass Combat chapter. In playtest, they found that the units usually had a lot of "turnover" (new men replacing killed) so the units tended to stay more-or-less the same. It does offer non-XP-based advancement rules, based on the assumption that the unit is drilling or otherwise practicing and "learning" constantly; so a unit advances 1 level after 6 months per level it has, up to a maximum of 4th level.

After pointing out that it is very difficult to quantify the challenges of a Mass-Combat campaign beforehand to give guidance, S&D goes on to say PCs can be given experience for creatures they personally defeat, and may receive Story Awards for winning important battles or the war in general.

Empire and FoB have nothing that I recall seeing, or can find quickly. FoB units are produced at a static level; presumably, advancing individuals might leave and go to a new unit, or their extra ability compensates for a "new recruit" who is not yet up to par. FoB does offer an "Improve Unit" action, but it is not XP based. Empire offers a similar option for units under its system.

The impression I get is that the XP from leading a realm is so small compared to that from adventuring that it will "get lost in the mix". Also, it appears that most such opportunities are expected to become adventures, and be handled that way. Sending a group of emissaries to a neighboring domain for trade negotiations ? There's an adventure hook, and the trip with its assorted hazards will provide XP for those who go.

 

[jeffh]

Silveras,

I had written off FoB - since I mainly play homebrew and Birthright and had already picked up Cry Havok and MMS. I passed on both Empire and the Mongoose one at the store since on a SINGLE GLANCE they seemed not to offer any additional to the stable I already own. Reading your review, it became apparent that FoB was the book I was looking for....Thanks for taking the time and for saving me some money.

I'd been quietly lurking on this thread (appreciating Silveras' efforts, certainly, but not planning on saying anything) when I saw this post. I'm in EXACTLY the same boat, and couldn't have said it better myself.

So, "ditto" to everything Eosin said, and I'll add my voice to the chorus of those who appreciate Silveras' hard work.

(Edit - cut a few words that weren't really relevant)