Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
There comes a time when everyone has to play a character with ability scores that suck. This is a simple guide with compiled information on how to bypass or reduce some of the penalties to maximize your character's playability.
First of all note that your attributes govern most of your abilities, but the most important are attack rolls, damage, saving throws, hit points and spellcasting. Most of the times the key attributes of these abilities are fixed; there are however various feats and class features that tweak them, letting you change the base attribute for a certain save or skill (e.g. insightful reflexes from complete adventurer makes you able to swap your dexterity with your intelligence modifier to determine your reflex saves). The best resource for this kind of abilities is the great LordKiwi's thread, x stat to y bonus.
Another important topic is the selection of your class. Surely you can't expect to play a character who suffers from MAD, like a paladin or a dual caster and be good at it. Classes that depend on one or two attributes to fill their role, like druid, cleric, wizard, beguiler, etc are probably your best bets. What really helps even further is when an important attribute of your class is also the base of a saving throw (like constitution and wisdom).
Class features is probably your best bet improving your attributes. That is because classes offers various ways of improving or changing your scores (wild shape, polymorph, metamorphosis, etc), especially your physical statistics. A great ally to low scores are alternative class features, replacing the abilities you don't need because you lack the attribute required (such as turn undead and really low charisma) or replacing abilities to reduce MAD.
Last but not least, the selection of race must be addressed. There are races that bypass some of the negative effects of bad attributes, such as undead characters and constitution, or incorporeal races and strength. Moreover an important mechanic to boost weak ability scores is the aging effects and there are ways to bypass them with spells and other abilities. Templates is probably the easiest way of boosting your weak areas and filling the gaps.
Attributes:
The question is, what can you really dump? As i see it, there are two ways to deal with this problem:
Now you'll probably need to focus on your mental attributes and be some kind of spellcaster that depends on wisdom (e.g. druid, cleric, psychic warrior). Wisdom and constitution are keys to your most useful saves, so naturally they receive priority. Intelligence is all about skill points and usually arcane spelcasting, so it would be wise to keep it at third place. Charisma is also a nice attribute, but depends on your class features and abilities, so it can be actually dumped. Dexterity and then strength are of the least importance, because they are easily replaceable.
So to wrap it up, the stat importance is:
Of course the order of the last four attributes can be easily changed, according to your character's style.
Class:
Classes that depend on two or more attributes (constitution excluded) are right out. So naturally favored souls, spirit shamans, warmages and most martial classes are bad choices. Typically you can't go wrong with:
Also, these classes focus usually on constitution and wisdom and they deserve special mention:
Races:
It should be relatively easy to choose a race with the above attribute guidelines. Typically anything with a bonus to constitution is a fine choice, as long as it doesn't lose out on wisdom. Small intelligence hits should be ok if you aren't a skill type character and the rest are more or less dump attributes. Some obvious choices:
A very important mechanic, mentioned earlier, are the aging effects. See if you can play a venerable character of your race, receiving -6 to physical scores and +3 to your mental ones. Then you can go necropolitan to offset the constitution loss and use spells and class features to get alternate forms to boost your attributes back to normal ranges. Another way is through dragonwrought kobold, but kobolds are generally not very easy to play with bad ability scores. Also if you play a venerable kobold you'll need to find a way to immortality fast, as you'll have just a few years of life before your time is up.
Finally, if LA buyoff is allowed in your game, consider taking a template or a race with level adjustment.
Of all the templates, two are probably the most useful:
Other templates of particular importance are:
Originally posted by magius_rerecros:
Hmm. Good information in here.
However, I feel that Divine Minion deserves a 'special mention', as it allows for Pun-Punification, although it's very true that Pun-Pun (whilst he is the most powerful character ever, especially since you can ascend at level 1, which basically negates the concept of the Omniscifer) is unplayable due to his extreme broken-ness. But looking at Pun-Pun always makes me chuckle and say, "Why didn't I think of that?" (probably because I didn't have access to all the necessary books at the time).
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
this is not the theoritical boards, no pun pun tricks here. This is information for casual players that have trouble with their scores.
Originally posted by magius_rerecros:
True. Only reason why I brought up Pun-Pun (besides the fact that I forgot that a board was created for theoretical builds like Pun-Pun) is that he's amusing, and related to the Divine Minion. Nothing more then that, really.
Originally posted by archerpwr:
Warlock- the class that is independant of its ability scores
Artificer- rocks too hard to be held back by low scores
Bard- Aside from a few feats, inspire courage doesn't need much
Dragonshaman- like warlock, but con helps more and needs to be closer to the fray. Second best IMO
Everything you listed is SAD, not "I don't need stats"
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
. Dragon Shamans are already listed.
What does SAD stands for? Seriously attribute dependent ?
Originally posted by archerpwr:
Originally posted by magius_rerecros:
Pretty sure that Archer hit it on the head with Artificer rocking too hard to need high stats. Although, it'd be best for an Artificer to have a nice high charisma score to pump up that UMD. Can't exactly craft the uber magic items if they can't succeed in their checks to emulate spell effects. But other then that, they can just simulate good stats with magic items.
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
Necropolitan Venerable Human:
Total points used: 10 (10 point buy !)
You'll need corrupted wild shape
[UNKNOWN=sup]: Libris Mortis
to make it work and it's completely unplayable at levels 1-5. Also note that you should avoid melee and focus more on casting/summoning.
Originally posted by archerpwr:
Also:
Venerable? You're kidding me. The dex of 2 is suicide. +1 to dcs is not that important. Middle aged at max.
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
There are ways around that 18, like 12-headed hydra, polymorph and arcane strike
All bards want to sing, it's party member bards who want to make a difference
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
Originally posted by archerpwr:
Gishes are more MAD than standard wizards. The caster wizard is perfect SAD.
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
? racism?
Seriously, corrupted wild shape, same book with necropolitan.
Originally posted by archerpwr:
Druids also need HP to melee unlike wizards, who don't melee.
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
Check the thread title again
Originally posted by archerpwr:
wis and con
You're not allowed to get rid of one of your most important stats.
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
average d12 = 6.5
average d8 + 2 = 6.5
same.
Don't start on why druid's shouldn't come to this in the first place, because i absolutely want to play a druid in 15 point buy campaign.
Originally posted by archerpwr:
18-6=12
No such thing as a venerable druid before level 15 either.
Originally posted by phaedrusxy:
Originally posted by surreal:
My experiences have shown Con to be overvalued unless you expect to really be in a lot of melee and are the sort that enjoys getting your hands dirty. For non melee types, I find a Con 14 to be reasonable. Oh sure there are always times I wish I had more hp, but I just as equally wish I had more Str, or a better reflex save, or more skill points, etc, and many of those situations have been life or death as well.
For a necropolitan, you have an "effective" hp boost switching to d12s (for druids this is like a Con 14, for Wizards it's like having a Con 18). Oh sure, you folks make the argument again that buying stat boosting Con items will make it more worthwhile in the longrun, but money fixes everything. You could take that money and bump your cloak of resistance up another notch or two or a nice staff or perhaps an armoir of endless harems.
By the time you get to high levels, I find Con rather moot unless you're well into the high 20's or up. The hp buffer against death gets smaller and smaller as enemies become stronger.
Originally posted by archerpwr:
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
Also you don't actually lose feats, since you can take augment summoning from initiate of malar instead of getting first spell focus (conjuration). Of course, you will have some problem with rashemi elemental summoning, but malar fits thematically, too.
Or, you know start adventuring at level 6
//edit: anyway, this is just a stub, anyone knows about stuff to add in the first post? I have yet to cover class features, feats, spells, etc. Items should be interesting.
Originally posted by phoenixinferno:
Originally posted by operation_shoestring:
I would like to point out that Dumping STR down to 2 will end with you unable to carry anything or wear armor.
Though if your DM allows backpackwarrior, STR can be safely dumped down to 2.
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
Wild Shape into virtually anything and carry your armor.
At 6th level you can be wild shaped 12 hours (+8 sleep), only 4 hours in 2 STR.
At 7th level you can stay all day wild shaped 21 hours (5 of which you'll probably be sleeping).
Originally posted by archerpwr:
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
Originally posted by archerpwr:
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
Originally posted by zarzak:
The scores you are talking about seem artificially low. A lot of players roll for stats, and going by that method you get to reroll unless you have at least a 13. And with a 13 you'll be a fine caster (wizard, cleric, whatever); w/a +6 item you'll get 9th lvl spells on time.
Originally posted by phaedrusxy:
Originally posted by zarzak:
If your ability adjustments = 0 or lower, of if your highest score is 13 or lower you get to reroll.
Which means even with my horrible roll (13, 10, 10, 9, 9, 8), which I could've rerolled, I can still make a decent caster.
If you have a 14, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8 (I guess the worst roll you can have without needing to reroll) you will be fine for any type of caster ...
Originally posted by surreal:
Originally posted by elephant_jack:
Some points...
Other then that: Another nice thread by Mr. Mortum
EJ
EDIT:
You should provide examples for "low-point buys" or standard/elite-arrays...
Plus: The worst stats I've rolled don't list a single score higher then 14; I think it's not very challenging to compensate for low point buys if you're allowed to a) LA buy-off, b) be venerable, c) cherry-pick undead-templates. No offense, but I've not played a single game where all of those rules were allowed, in most of them all were banned (and my DMs are quite liberal with "new" stuff)...
/EDIT
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
You are right guys, the least scores you can have are probably 14, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8.
But i realized that this stuff is useful not only to characters that suffer from bad rolls, but to those that are extremely low on a specific score, too (necropolitan for low con, or altering yourself for str and dex).
However we have payed a lot of attention to druids, venerable characters and undead, when the most prosperous field to increase your ability scores is probably spells!
Originally posted by jameswilliamogle:
Just noticed this thread linked to another recent one.
I thought its worth a special mention: I've seen some fairly convincing arguments that the Necropolitan's d12 HD only applies to racial HD, not HD derived from class levels.
I think its worth a note next to the Necropolitan template.
Originally posted by archerpwr:
Originally posted by nntp:
Master of Many Forms Prc I believe deserves mention. If you aren't using the erratad wild shape, it has NAD. No Attribute Dependency. If you are, it needs Single Attribute Dependency. There was a thread a long while back talking about a character with 8's across the board, and consensus was MoMF was the only way to go.
Originally posted by archerpwr:
Originally posted by vicen_korel:
Heck warlock, Fey heritage, Maybe some Sorc in there to go Eldritch Thuerge. Use your Sorc spells to boost what you need and rely on DR to see you through melees, most things I have faced can't get through that DR -/cold iron becuase they don't want to pay the extra GP to get cold iron enchanted. Dump Wis with that as it's not needed, Str can go too for obvious reasons. Keep decent Cha, and anything else can even out Dex, Con and Int to 10's as spells can boost AC.
There comes a time when everyone has to play a character with ability scores that suck. This is a simple guide with compiled information on how to bypass or reduce some of the penalties to maximize your character's playability.
First of all note that your attributes govern most of your abilities, but the most important are attack rolls, damage, saving throws, hit points and spellcasting. Most of the times the key attributes of these abilities are fixed; there are however various feats and class features that tweak them, letting you change the base attribute for a certain save or skill (e.g. insightful reflexes from complete adventurer makes you able to swap your dexterity with your intelligence modifier to determine your reflex saves). The best resource for this kind of abilities is the great LordKiwi's thread, x stat to y bonus.
Another important topic is the selection of your class. Surely you can't expect to play a character who suffers from MAD, like a paladin or a dual caster and be good at it. Classes that depend on one or two attributes to fill their role, like druid, cleric, wizard, beguiler, etc are probably your best bets. What really helps even further is when an important attribute of your class is also the base of a saving throw (like constitution and wisdom).
Class features is probably your best bet improving your attributes. That is because classes offers various ways of improving or changing your scores (wild shape, polymorph, metamorphosis, etc), especially your physical statistics. A great ally to low scores are alternative class features, replacing the abilities you don't need because you lack the attribute required (such as turn undead and really low charisma) or replacing abilities to reduce MAD.
Last but not least, the selection of race must be addressed. There are races that bypass some of the negative effects of bad attributes, such as undead characters and constitution, or incorporeal races and strength. Moreover an important mechanic to boost weak ability scores is the aging effects and there are ways to bypass them with spells and other abilities. Templates is probably the easiest way of boosting your weak areas and filling the gaps.
Attributes:
The question is, what can you really dump? As i see it, there are two ways to deal with this problem:
- You have really bad rolls, but one particular attribute is average to high (12-16), in which case you put it in constitution.
- You have really bad rolls, but you need your abilities to be more challenging. You put your best roll to your casting/main stat and you choose a race that has no constitution score, such as undead (e.g. Necropolitan Human).
Now you'll probably need to focus on your mental attributes and be some kind of spellcaster that depends on wisdom (e.g. druid, cleric, psychic warrior). Wisdom and constitution are keys to your most useful saves, so naturally they receive priority. Intelligence is all about skill points and usually arcane spelcasting, so it would be wise to keep it at third place. Charisma is also a nice attribute, but depends on your class features and abilities, so it can be actually dumped. Dexterity and then strength are of the least importance, because they are easily replaceable.
So to wrap it up, the stat importance is:
- Constitution or casting/main attribute and no constitution score.
- Wisdom.
- Intelligence.
- Charisma.
- Dexterity.
- Strength.
Of course the order of the last four attributes can be easily changed, according to your character's style.
Class:
Classes that depend on two or more attributes (constitution excluded) are right out. So naturally favored souls, spirit shamans, warmages and most martial classes are bad choices. Typically you can't go wrong with:
- Druid
- Wizard
- Cleric
- Psion
- Psychic Warrior
- Ardent
- Beguiler
Also, these classes focus usually on constitution and wisdom and they deserve special mention:
- Swordsage
- Dragonfire Adept
- Incarnate
- Totemist
- Dragon Shaman
Races:
It should be relatively easy to choose a race with the above attribute guidelines. Typically anything with a bonus to constitution is a fine choice, as long as it doesn't lose out on wisdom. Small intelligence hits should be ok if you aren't a skill type character and the rest are more or less dump attributes. Some obvious choices:
- Human
- Dwarf
- Gnome
- Mongrefolk
- Dream Dwarf
- Uldra (if LA buyoff is allowed)
- Anthropomorphic Bat
A very important mechanic, mentioned earlier, are the aging effects. See if you can play a venerable character of your race, receiving -6 to physical scores and +3 to your mental ones. Then you can go necropolitan to offset the constitution loss and use spells and class features to get alternate forms to boost your attributes back to normal ranges. Another way is through dragonwrought kobold, but kobolds are generally not very easy to play with bad ability scores. Also if you play a venerable kobold you'll need to find a way to immortality fast, as you'll have just a few years of life before your time is up.
Finally, if LA buyoff is allowed in your game, consider taking a template or a race with level adjustment.
Of all the templates, two are probably the most useful:
- Divine Minion: This gives you the option of completely dumping your strength and dexterity scores because of the fast wild shape option. The god selection gives you an edge, but of course limits your roleplaying capabilities. If you want to play a melee character, this is great: choose anhur as your deity and get to spend all your life in a lion form (as you can stay indefinitely in your animal form). If you want a skill-monkey or a caster form (to wear magic items and so on) Thoth is a great option, as it offers the Baboon, with 15 str, 14 dex and +1 natural armor. Moreover, the wild shape ability this template provides opens up possibilities for feats that augment the shapes you can take (such as the broken dragon wild shape).
- Necropolitan: Cheap, removes the need for a constitution score and it doesn't even cost LA. You can then work on effects to augment your undead state (such as the spellstitched template). Remember though that you are now undead and can be easily manipulated or destroyed by a clerics.
Other templates of particular importance are:
- Telthor: One of the few templates that grants you the great incorporeal subtype at a relatively low LA (+2). This means that you can completely shun strength. Unfortunately your type changes to fey, which means that it is not compatible with necropolitan, making you able to completely dump two ability scores. Telthor telepathy can probably be used with mindsight. The damage you get when outside the area you guard is a joke, with a little fast healing you can easily overcome it.
- Dragonborn: Low cost and great possibilities. It can grant you a con-based breath weapon and boosts your constitution while reducing your dexterity. The mind draconic aspect is just awesome.
Originally posted by magius_rerecros:
Hmm. Good information in here.
However, I feel that Divine Minion deserves a 'special mention', as it allows for Pun-Punification, although it's very true that Pun-Pun (whilst he is the most powerful character ever, especially since you can ascend at level 1, which basically negates the concept of the Omniscifer) is unplayable due to his extreme broken-ness. But looking at Pun-Pun always makes me chuckle and say, "Why didn't I think of that?" (probably because I didn't have access to all the necessary books at the time).
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
this is not the theoritical boards, no pun pun tricks here. This is information for casual players that have trouble with their scores.
Originally posted by magius_rerecros:
True. Only reason why I brought up Pun-Pun (besides the fact that I forgot that a board was created for theoretical builds like Pun-Pun
) is that he's amusing, and related to the Divine Minion. Nothing more then that, really.Originally posted by archerpwr:
Warlock- the class that is independant of its ability scores
Artificer- rocks too hard to be held back by low scores
Bard- Aside from a few feats, inspire courage doesn't need much
Dragonshaman- like warlock, but con helps more and needs to be closer to the fray. Second best IMO
Everything you listed is SAD, not "I don't need stats"
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
Damn, i forgot about eberron. I'll include artificer. Warlocks are ok, too. Bards are a little attribute dependent, unless you want only to sing
. Dragon Shamans are already listed. What does SAD stands for
? Seriously attribute dependent ?Originally posted by archerpwr:
Single attribute dependant. That 18 is f***ing everything to those classes. What bard doesn't want to sing?Damn, i forgot about eberron. I'll include artificer. Warlocks are ok, too. Bards are a little attribute dependent, unless you want only to sing
What does SAD stands for
Originally posted by magius_rerecros:
Pretty sure that Archer hit it on the head with Artificer rocking too hard to need high stats. Although, it'd be best for an Artificer to have a nice high charisma score to pump up that UMD. Can't exactly craft the uber magic items if they can't succeed in their checks to emulate spell effects. But other then that, they can just simulate good stats with magic items.
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
Necropolitan Venerable Human:
- Str: 8 - 6 = 2
- Dex: 8 - 6 = 2
- Con: -
- Int: 8 + 1 (1 point) + 3 age = 12
- Wis: 8 + 9 (7 points) + 3 age = 18
- Cha: 8 + 3 age = 11
Total points used: 10 (10 point buy !)
You'll need corrupted wild shape
[UNKNOWN=sup]: Libris Mortis
to make it work and it's completely unplayable at levels 1-5. Also note that you should avoid melee and focus more on casting/summoning.
Originally posted by archerpwr:
Yep. Worst case artificer is just a bit more in line with the rest of the party.
Also:
Venerable? You're kidding me. The dex of 2 is suicide. +1 to dcs is not that important. Middle aged at max.
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
i was joking about SAD ^^
There are ways around that 18, like 12-headed hydra, polymorph and arcane strike
All bards want to sing, it's party member bards who want to make a difference
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
wild shape to the rescue ?
Originally posted by archerpwr:
No such thing as a necropolitan druid.
Gishes are more MAD than standard wizards. The caster wizard is perfect SAD.
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
why
? racism?Seriously, corrupted wild shape, same book with necropolitan.
Originally posted by archerpwr:
[SIZE=++]Druids shall not burn feats.[/SIZE]why
Seriously, corrupted wild shape, same book with necropolitan.
Druids also need HP to melee unlike wizards, who don't melee.
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
Who cares? The point is that it's playable with little to no resources, desperate times call for desperate measures.
Check the thread title again
Originally posted by archerpwr:
Seriously DM... Druids have 2 stats:Who cares? The point is that it's playable with little to no resources, desperate times call for desperate measures.
Check the thread title again
wis and con
You're not allowed to get rid of one of your most important stats.
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
how much con will you have at venerable, even old age? 14? 15? And that's if you start with a 18.
average d12 = 6.5
average d8 + 2 = 6.5
same.
Don't start on why druid's shouldn't come to this in the first place, because i absolutely want to play a druid in 15 point buy campaign
.Originally posted by archerpwr:
Compendium: A guide to low scoreshow much con will you have at venerable, even old age? 14? 15? And that's if you start with a 18.
average d12 = 6.5
average d8 + 2 = 6.5
same.
Don't start on why druid's shouldn't come to this in the first place, because i absolutely want to play a druid in 15 point buy campaign
18-6=12
No such thing as a venerable druid before level 15 either.
Originally posted by phaedrusxy:
Sure you are, if you're not even using it (i.e., an undead or construct). Surviving to level 6 might be a ***** with 2s for all physical stats, though.
Originally posted by surreal:
My experiences have shown Con to be overvalued unless you expect to really be in a lot of melee and are the sort that enjoys getting your hands dirty. For non melee types, I find a Con 14 to be reasonable. Oh sure there are always times I wish I had more hp, but I just as equally wish I had more Str, or a better reflex save, or more skill points, etc, and many of those situations have been life or death as well.
For a necropolitan, you have an "effective" hp boost switching to d12s (for druids this is like a Con 14, for Wizards it's like having a Con 18). Oh sure, you folks make the argument again that buying stat boosting Con items will make it more worthwhile in the longrun, but money fixes everything. You could take that money and bump your cloak of resistance up another notch or two or a nice staff or perhaps an armoir of endless harems.
By the time you get to high levels, I find Con rather moot unless you're well into the high 20's or up. The hp buffer against death gets smaller and smaller as enemies become stronger.
Originally posted by archerpwr:
I'm specifically talking about druids. Druids are known to get into melee and have the bite of XXX spells before anyone else.
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
That was my point in the first place. You get more HP by going necropolitan.
Also you don't actually lose feats, since you can take augment summoning from initiate of malar instead of getting first spell focus (conjuration). Of course, you will have some problem with rashemi elemental summoning, but malar fits thematically, too.
Yup, that's a real pain. I guess you can use HP enhancers probably and retrain later, after the transformation.Sure you are, if you're not even using it (i.e., an undead or construct). Surviving to level 6 might be a ***** with 2s for all physical stats, though.
Or, you know
start adventuring at level 6 i definitely go for con, but this is a special occasion
druid casters are not unheard of. You can play a summoner and skip the melee part.
//edit: anyway, this is just a stub, anyone knows about stuff to add in the first post? I have yet to cover class features, feats, spells, etc. Items should be interesting.
Originally posted by phoenixinferno:
I would totally buy one of those.
Originally posted by operation_shoestring:
I would like to point out that Dumping STR down to 2 will end with you unable to carry anything or wear armor.
Though if your DM allows backpackwarrior, STR can be safely dumped down to 2.
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
:S
Wild Shape into virtually anything and carry your armor.
At 6th level you can be wild shaped 12 hours (+8 sleep), only 4 hours in 2 STR.
At 7th level you can stay all day wild shaped 21 hours (5 of which you'll probably be sleeping).
Originally posted by archerpwr:
The counter I've been waiting for. If there is a disclaimer to come with advice it should be given.
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
it's obvious that this is a special case, i think that anyone playing a caster with so low ability scores wouldn't expect to fulfill all his roles perfectly.
Originally posted by archerpwr:
Obvious to you and me maybe, but for a guide I'd like to just be able to just drop a link for a noob.
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
i added a disclaimer to make things easier.
Originally posted by zarzak:
The scores you are talking about seem artificially low. A lot of players roll for stats, and going by that method you get to reroll unless you have at least a 13. And with a 13 you'll be a fine caster (wizard, cleric, whatever); w/a +6 item you'll get 9th lvl spells on time.
Originally posted by phaedrusxy:
Do you mean an average of 13? We used to use that, too.
Originally posted by zarzak:
If your ability adjustments = 0 or lower, of if your highest score is 13 or lower you get to reroll.
Which means even with my horrible roll (13, 10, 10, 9, 9, 8), which I could've rerolled, I can still make a decent caster.
If you have a 14, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8 (I guess the worst roll you can have without needing to reroll) you will be fine for any type of caster ...
Originally posted by surreal:
Heh, I was wondering if someone would catch that
Originally posted by elephant_jack:
Some points...
- you don't list warlock... they're pretty non-dependant on scores (and usually are flying and invisible )
- what about classes with a high will save? A duskblade blaster comes to mind
- what about the illumian race? Since you'll be able to shift your bonus-spell granting score, you'll reduce MAD (gishs, for example)
- I think the binder deserves special mention
- the wildshape ranger deserves special mention (even more so if you chose the spells vs. bonus feats variant from CC)
- the petal from MM3 deserves special mention (skill monkeys/Cha-monkeys hooray!)
Other then that: Another nice thread by Mr. Mortum
EJ
EDIT:
You should provide examples for "low-point buys" or standard/elite-arrays...
Plus: The worst stats I've rolled don't list a single score higher then 14; I think it's not very challenging to compensate for low point buys if you're allowed to a) LA buy-off, b) be venerable, c) cherry-pick undead-templates. No offense, but I've not played a single game where all of those rules were allowed, in most of them all were banned (and my DMs are quite liberal with "new" stuff)...
/EDIT
Originally posted by Dictum_Mortuum:
You are right guys, the least scores you can have are probably 14, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8.
But i realized that this stuff is useful not only to characters that suffer from bad rolls, but to those that are extremely low on a specific score, too (necropolitan for low con, or altering yourself for str and dex).
However we have payed a lot of attention to druids, venerable characters and undead, when the most prosperous field to increase your ability scores is probably spells!
Originally posted by jameswilliamogle:
Just noticed this thread linked to another recent one.
I thought its worth a special mention: I've seen some fairly convincing arguments that the Necropolitan's d12 HD only applies to racial HD, not HD derived from class levels.
I think its worth a note next to the Necropolitan template.
Originally posted by archerpwr:
That would really suck.
Originally posted by nntp:
Master of Many Forms Prc I believe deserves mention. If you aren't using the erratad wild shape, it has NAD. No Attribute Dependency. If you are, it needs Single Attribute Dependency. There was a thread a long while back talking about a character with 8's across the board, and consensus was MoMF was the only way to go.
Originally posted by archerpwr:
Warlock is more NAD than that.
Originally posted by vicen_korel:
Heck warlock, Fey heritage, Maybe some Sorc in there to go Eldritch Thuerge. Use your Sorc spells to boost what you need and rely on DR to see you through melees, most things I have faced can't get through that DR -/cold iron becuase they don't want to pay the extra GP to get cold iron enchanted. Dump Wis with that as it's not needed, Str can go too for obvious reasons. Keep decent Cha, and anything else can even out Dex, Con and Int to 10's as spells can boost AC.
