D&D 5E Concentration: combining two effects

[CapnZapp]

Regarding the general dissatisfaction with the Concentration rules. It has several impacts, but most notably (in my opinion) the way it gates out all the second-rate spells.

A much more interesting solution would be:
Step 1: Identify at least one, preferably dozens, spell(s) that optimization guides rate poorly and that you never see used at your table.
Step 2: Add "rings of concentration" and similar magic that allows you to use those spells (and only those spells) even if you're already concentrating.

Specific rules language to follow; this just the general idea.

The ideal would to allow you to combine one buff that is currently rated red or purple, with another buff also currently rated red or purple.

You should not expect to combine any buff with one currently rated blue or gold, since that would be a direct power-up.

Yes, let's follow up with some specific rules language

Let's use Treeantmonk's excellent Guide to Wizards 5e as a starting point. (Please don't argue about his spell ratings here. If you disagree, feel free to view my suggestions as examples only)

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?450158-Treantmonk-s-Guide-to-Wizards-5e

Let's construct a few items that satisfy the above wishlist: specifically the one where only below-average spells can be combined (spells TAM rate orange or red, but not brown or better than orange). We're especially interested in spells rated poorly specifically because they require concentration. We definitely focus on combat spells, since outside of combat concentration is MUCH less of a drawback.

RING OF CONCENTRATION
While wearing a ring of concentration, you may cast and concentrate on any Inscribed spell, even if you're already concentrating on an Inscribed spell. Any given ring of concentration has three or more spells inscribed. A ring of concentration only allows you to concentrate on two castings simultaneously and the spells must be inscribed spells.

Jagged Ring of Concentration
A Ring of Concentration with the spells Witch Bolt, Crown of Madness, and Bestow Curse inscribed.

Saintly Ring of Concentration
A Ring of Concentration with the spells Protection from Evil and Good, Ray of Enfeeblement, and Slow inscribed.

Profane Ring of Concentration
A Ring of Concentration with the spells Protection from Evil and Good, Darkness, and Vampiric Touch inscribed.

Silver Ring of Concentration
A Ring of Concentration with the spells Gust of Wind, Phantasmal Force, and Enlarge/Reduce inscribed.

Electrum Ring of Concentration
A Ring of Concentration with the spells Magic Weapon, Cloud of Daggers, and Haste inscribed.

Gold Ring of Concentration
A Ring of Concentration with the spells Hold Person, Stinking Cloud, and Fly inscribed.


So if I found one jagged and one electrum ring of concentration and wore both, I could cast Crown of Madness even if I'm already concentrating on Cloud of Daggers. Or I could cast Magic Weapon twice. You get the idea.

I would still have to spend spell slots as normal. I would still have to make concentration checks as normal (one for each spell)

The only difference would be that I no longer dismiss casting Bestow Curse out of hand, since I now can combine that with at least some other spells /Zapp

 

[MindxKiller]

I would say most of those are interesting ideas, but the gold ring is a bit much. The ability to have hold person AND fly is disproportionately powerful compared to the other rings, hold person is a fantastic spell, and fly is one of those spells that when you need it, its super powerful. Both at the same time I feel is too powerful. In your initial comments you stated that we should be looking at spells that are orange or red, not brown, and not better than orange (disregarding my own views on treatmonks ratings) fly IS higher than orange. It's purple, which invalidates it from the discussion, I would think. However I'm of the mind that instead of removing fly, remove hold person. For that matter, so is haste, however the spells you can combine with haste don't seem to break anything as far as I can tell (unless you keep hold person on the rings) so I'm inclined to give it a pass as well. You have a few other purple spells listed in these rings as well, so I'm unsure of why you even wrote the limiter at the start in the first place. I think this is certainly going in the right direction though, and I like the overall idea, keep up the good work!

 

[Rabbitbait]

What general dissatisfaction? Have you got any non-anecdotal evidence to back that up? I think the concentration rules are a good thing and I've seen nothing to make me think I am in a minority.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Fundamentally I think the problem is that I disagree with treantmonk on the majority of the spells you have listed, and even where I agree with him on how good the spell is, the concentration restriction is not the cause of the issues with the spell: typically the spell has ill-thought-out mechanics (crown of madness), excessive restrictions (hold person, crown of madness) or are just plain crap because the effects they produce are well below the baseline for their level even in the best of circumstances (cloud of daggers, ray of enfeeblement, slow).

Simply put, if you were casting crown of madness and cloud of daggers at the same time... you would still most likely be sucking.

Oh, and bestow curse is an amazing spell because it's one of very few ways to give disadvantage on saves. The fact that it lasts for ages without concentration at higher levels is icing on the cake.

Concentration is a good thing for the game. Maybe not for spellcasters trying to be god, but certainly for the game.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Those items seems ludicrously specific as to who might be able to use them. The chance that someone would find the ring and know one of the relevant spells and be in a situation where that warranted spending multiple spell slots is vanishingly small.

If you're comfortable adding stuff to the game, why not just invent new spells that work exactly like the bad ones but don't require concentration? Inventing new stuff is encouraged in this edition.

 

[MostlyDm]

Fundamentally I think the problem is that I disagree with treantmonk on the majority of the spells you have listed, and even where I agree with him on how good the spell is, the concentration restriction is not the cause of the issues with the spell: typically the spell has ill-thought-out mechanics (crown of madness), excessive restrictions (hold person, crown of madness) or are just plain crap because the effects they produce are well below the baseline for their level even in the best of circumstances (cloud of daggers, ray of enfeeblement, slow).

Simply put, if you were casting crown of madness and cloud of daggers at the same time... you would still most likely be sucking.

Oh, and bestow curse is an amazing spell because it's one of very few ways to give disadvantage on saves. The fact that it lasts for ages without concentration at higher levels is icing on the cake.

Concentration is a good thing for the game. Maybe not for spellcasters trying to be god, but certainly for the game.

I agree with everything in your post except the bolded part. Cloud of daggers is underrated, man! My tanky dwarven Abjurer will grapple your ass into his cloud of daggers for guaranteed damage, and he can still cast spells on other people if he wants.

... Okay, so I'm mostly kidding. I've definitely put it to great use against certain boss foes (usually in conjunction with my bardlock buddy either hexing the target's strength or dex to keep them failing those grapple escapes, or using his enhance ability wand on my strength instead.) But it's an incredibly niche use, and until I cooked up this absurd little scheme I had it pegged as damn near worthless.

 

[Horwath]

Only think that I would add is that you can concentrate on any number of spell as long as their combined level is not higher than highest level you can cast.
cantrips count as 1/2 level spells, round up.

I.E. 9th level wizard can concentrate on;
one 5th level spell,
one 4th level spell and one 1st level spells,
two 2nd level spells one 1st level spell,
one 3rd level spell, one 1st level spell and two cantrips,

etc...

 

[CapnZapp]

I would say most of those are interesting ideas, but the gold ring is a bit much. The ability to have hold person AND fly is disproportionately powerful compared to the other rings, hold person is a fantastic spell, and fly is one of those spells that when you need it, its super powerful. Both at the same time I feel is too powerful. In your initial comments you stated that we should be looking at spells that are orange or red, not brown, and not better than orange (disregarding my own views on treatmonks ratings) fly IS higher than orange. It's purple, which invalidates it from the discussion, I would think. However I'm of the mind that instead of removing fly, remove hold person. For that matter, so is haste, however the spells you can combine with haste don't seem to break anything as far as I can tell (unless you keep hold person on the rings) so I'm inclined to give it a pass as well. You have a few other purple spells listed in these rings as well, so I'm unsure of why you even wrote the limiter at the start in the first place. I think this is certainly going in the right direction though, and I like the overall idea, keep up the good work!

I could have made a mistake; I'm accustomed to guide rating colors where reds are bad (including purple) while blues and yellows are good.

If Treeant monk rated fly and haste well that would explain my question "why so bad rating, isn't those spells well received?"

I didn't dwell on it further; I just plucked out those spells that appeared to get a low rating.

Cheers

 

[CapnZapp]

What general dissatisfaction? Have you got any non-anecdotal evidence to back that up? I think the concentration rules are a good thing and I've seen nothing to make me think I am in a minority.

All "evidence" is anecdotal. If you expect a scientific study, expect to be disappointed.

I would link to the current big concentration thread, but I'm on tapatalk.

 

[CapnZapp]

Fundamentally I think the problem is that I disagree with treantmonk on the majority of the spells you have listed, and even where I agree with him on how good the spell is, the concentration restriction is not the cause of the issues with the spell: typically the spell has ill-thought-out mechanics (crown of madness), excessive restrictions (hold person, crown of madness) or are just plain crap because the effects they produce are well below the baseline for their level even in the best of circumstances (cloud of daggers, ray of enfeeblement, slow).

Simply put, if you were casting crown of madness and cloud of daggers at the same time... you would still most likely be sucking.

Oh, and bestow curse is an amazing spell because it's one of very few ways to give disadvantage on saves. The fact that it lasts for ages without concentration at higher levels is icing on the cake.

Concentration is a good thing for the game. Maybe not for spellcasters trying to be god, but certainly for the game.

You respond as if I'm attacking Concentration in general. I'm not.

You also respond as if I didn't ask you to overlook Treeant monks ratings - if you don't like them, treat my rings as illustrative examples only.

I'm not going to argue the merits of individual spells here, at least not until we have hashed out a general mechanical foundation for the idea to stand on. Feel free to contribute!

The point is: if there's even one spell that you and your group never use and that the reason is chiefly because it requires your sole concentration "slot", why not loosen that restriction for that spell?