D&D 5E concentration in 5th edition, whats my fix?

[Swarmkeeper]

I realize this may be a "reductio ad absurdum" argument, but would you ever prepare only Concentration spells? You must really like cantrips.

And yes, I'd consider scribing/preparing both fireball and lightning bolt. Different energy types, different AoE shapes. That AoE thing is especially true if you're an evoker that doesn't have to worry about frying their friends with their area spells. That archetype is easy mode when it comes to blasting.

If I was a Paladin, my non-concentration spells would be quite limited - so, yes, I might have a situation where I prepared just concentration spells for the day. As a wizard, most likely not.

Just now, I was specifically looking at 4th through 8th level evocation spells for wizards (using www.dnd-spells.com) and didn't see any instances where I would rule out preparing multiple concentration spells. They all seem different enough.

Do you have specific examples of spells from your spellbook you would never prepare at the same time because they are both concentration spells from the same level? Or examples of two concentration spells you would only ever select one of when leveling up?

 

[houser2112]

If I was a Paladin, my non-concentration spells would be quite limited - so, yes, I might have a situation where I prepared just concentration spells for the day. As a wizard, most likely not.

I'm not too familiar with the Paladin spells, but I'm somewhat familiar with the Ranger spells (I think those classes are comparable for the sake of this discussion). There are several Ranger spells that have Concentration purely for contrived balance purposes. They don't want you to be able to cast lightning arrow (an attack spell that should really be Instantaneous) while you have hunter's mark (a buff spell that probably "deserves" Concentration, if any spell does) up for some reason. If Paladins have similar problems, I sympathize.

Just now, I was specifically looking at 4th through 8th level evocation spells for wizards (using www.dnd-spells.com) and didn't see any instances where I would rule out preparing multiple concentration spells. They all seem different enough.

Do you have specific examples of spells from your spellbook you would never prepare at the same time because they are both concentration spells from the same level? Or examples of two concentration spells you would only ever select one of when leveling up?

Specific pairs of spells? No. I would take my list as a whole and prepare a mix of spells. I want to be able to do interesting things while I have Concentration spells going.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Specific pairs of spells? No. I would take my list as a whole and prepare a mix of spells. I want to be able to do interesting things while I have Concentration spells going.

That makes sense.

What about the second part of my question? "[Do you have specific] examples of two concentration spells you would only ever select one of when leveling up?"

 

[cbwjm]

Couldn't the same be said of any two spells in your spellbook (assuming wizard here for the sake of discussion)? For instance, would you ever prepare (or even pick in the first place) both fireball and lightning bolt?

I guess my point is, the utility of the spell seems far more important in choosing whether to pick or prepare it than whether or not it requires concentration. Concentration is absolutely an important mechanic in balancing the game, but I'm still of the mindset that it is not all that integral in determining which spells are ultimately brought to most tables during any given adventuring day.

I definitely would choose to scribe both fireball and lightning bolt in my spellbook, I may be less likely to prepare both, especially at lower levels where number of spells I can prepare is at a premium.

For me, if I see that I have a number of concentrations spells prepared I will go back and review those spells and remove some of them so that I have more options during combat. If the concentration spells that I pick are generally for wildly different situations, then that's fine, but I try not to double up too much on combat concentration spells, instead picking up another spell that doesn't require it. For instance, if I'm often casting haste on an ally then I probably won't bother preparing flaming sphere since that will normally just sit in my list of prepared spells not being used.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

For instance, if I'm often casting haste on an ally then I probably won't bother preparing flaming sphere since that will normally just sit in my list of prepared spells not being used.

How about examples of concentration spells of the same level that you would avoid preparing together?

I would point out that when you chose to learn haste (3rd level spell), you already had flaming sphere (2nd lvl) and presumably had used it as a level 3 and 4 character. However, lots of lower level spells get shelved daily - and not simply due to the concentration mechanic - as you gain access to higher level spells (i.e. Burning hands gets replaced by flaming sphere gets usurped by fireball etc...) and when your attack cantrips gain extra damage (level 5, 11...).

 

[Gadget]

Couldn't the same be said of any two spells in your spellbook (assuming wizard here for the sake of discussion)? For instance, would you ever prepare (or even pick in the first place) both fireball and lightning bolt?

I guess my point is, the utility of the spell seems far more important in choosing whether to pick or prepare it than whether or not it requires concentration. Concentration is absolutely an important mechanic in balancing the game, but I'm still of the mindset that it is not all that integral in determining which spells are ultimately brought to most tables during any given adventuring day.

There is nothing in the rules preventing you from casting both fireball and lightning bolt in the same combat. Setting aside how efficient or optimal such a tactic would be, you are not going to enter combat and realize: "Oh, I cast lighting bolt last round, I can't cast fireball this round". So the comparison does not really apply. And there are a fair number of Concentration spells that you would like to apply to the same combat that are a lot more efficient than a lightning bolt/fireball combo that could trip up a newer player. A Druid may want to cast Barkskin & Flame Blade, a cleric may want to have shield of Faith and Bane, a Warlock both Hex and Cloud of Daggers, etc. It really is a consideration that must be made when selecting/preparing spells.

That said, I'll just reiterate what I posed in the other thread:

If I was going to modify the concentration, it would be to probably to modify the Con save to see if you loose concentration (It is a bit fiddly). If I wanted to go further, I would take things on a spell by spell basis: does this spell really need concentration? There are a number of spells in 5e that could probably use another pass (I don't see why Dancing Lights really needs Concentration). If I still wanted to go further, I would try out a magic item that allowed a user to concentrate on a specific spell without using their concentration slot. Perhaps the item would be single use, or have charges (we already have items that do this, aka Ring of Invisibility, etc). If I still wanted to go further, I might go into certain spells and allow them to be upcast X,Y, or Z levels to no longer require concentration, depending on the spell in question. Some spells probably would not get rid of the concentration requirement no matter how many levels they were upcast.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

There is nothing in the rules preventing you from casting both fireball and lightning bolt in the same combat. Setting aside how efficient or optimal such a tactic would be, you are not going to enter combat and realize: "Oh, I cast lighting bolt last round, I can't cast fireball this round". So the comparison does not really apply.

You miss my point. I'm arguing that a wizard will choose the spell mix she feels is best for that adventuring day, and concentration is NOT the major reason for doing so. You support my hypothesis with your "Setting aside how efficient or optimal such a tactic would be" verbiage regarding preparing both fireball and lightning - because the tactic of varied damage types comes at the cost of not preparing another type of spell that could be more useful on that day. Thanks.

And there are a fair number of Concentration spells that you would like to apply to the same combat that are a lot more efficient than a lightning bolt/fireball combo that could trip up a newer player.

And this is why concentration exists - that "more efficient" combo risks unbalancing the game.

 

[Gadget]

You miss my point. I'm arguing that a wizard will choose the spell mix she feels is best for that adventuring day, and concentration is NOT the major reason for doing so. You support my hypothesis with your "Setting aside how efficient or optimal such a tactic would be" verbiage regarding preparing both fireball and lightning - because the tactic of varied damage types comes at the cost of not preparing another type of spell that could be more useful on that day. Thanks.

And you miss my point, the concentration rules make it a consideration, more so than the inefficiency of various combos (While it is true that game play over time will help along the more efficient combos in a survival of the fittest type of manner, this is not an upfront restriction).

And this is why concentration exists - that "more efficient" combo risks unbalancing the game.

Well, yes, that is the point of concentration. The proverbial inexperienced/newbie player who would choose the lightning bolt/fireball combo would presumably not be cognizant of the subtleties of these rule interactions and might find out, almost by accident, "in the moment" that a certain combination is ineligible and be forced to take note at spell selection/preparation time; whereas the "less efficient" spell combo would sail through, perhaps unnoticed by the player, happily blasting away until the harsh mistress of adventures and total party kills taught him or her better through experience over time.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

And you miss my point...

Bah, maybe we're just talking past each other. Or maybe you're just not concentrating hard enough... oh, I see... you want it to stack!

Well, yes, that is the point of concentration. The proverbial inexperienced/newbie player who would choose the lightning bolt/fireball combo would presumably not be cognizant of the subtleties of these rule interactions and might find out, almost by accident, "in the moment" that a certain combination is ineligible and be forced to take note at spell selection/preparation time; whereas the "less efficient" spell combo would sail through, perhaps unnoticed by the player, happily blasting away until the harsh mistress of adventures and total party kills taught him or her better through experience over time.

I'm getting the sense you prefer optimization to story, so we're unlikely to agree on this point. I enjoy your hyperbole though: suggesting that a wizard would ALWAYS go with fireball/lightning bolt combo without having considered ANY concentration spells along the way to 5th level AND that choosing such a combo all the time at 5th level and beyond would be a major reason for one TPK, let alone multiple. Balderdash!

Anyway, whatever works for your table.

 

[Gadget]

I'm getting the sense you prefer optimization to story, so we're unlikely to agree on this point. I enjoy your hyperbole though: suggesting that a wizard would ALWAYS go with fireball/lightning bolt combo without having considered ANY concentration spells along the way to 5th level AND that choosing such a combo all the time at 5th level and beyond would be a major reason for one TPK, let alone multiple. Balderdash!

Anyway, whatever works for your table.

The lightning bolt/fireball combo was your example, and while there was a bit of tongue in cheek hyperbole in the tpk statement, the point still stands: inefficient combos are not directly prohibited by the rules, whereas Concentration combos are, and therefore force the potential player to take them into consideration more so than otherwise would be the case. Ergo, the two are not directly comparable. While I don't know about your game obviously, I would think this would impact even more story oriented games to some degree, barring house rules. That said, I do not want to give the impression that I am against the concentration mechanic and/or balance; or story gaming (depending on ones definition, I enjoy some varieties myself) and every table is different, so happy gaming!