D&D 5E Concentration while Short Resting

[Krachek]

We can see the problems from another angle.
Is it unfair to maintain concentration on Hex during a short rest, while receiving the benefit of the short rest?
And
Is it unfair to use the bag of rats trick to start the day with a free Hex active?

The problems is not about interpreting the rule, the problems is about game balance between players.
Each table may have a different answer, but it is not by analyzing each word, comma and period in the rules that you will find the answer.

 

[Uller]

^ This

 

[Caliban]

We can see the problems from another angle.
Is it unfair to maintain concentration on Hex during a short rest, while receiving the benefit of the short rest?
And
Is it unfair to use the bag of rats trick to start the day with a free Hex active?

The problems is not about interpreting the rule, the problems is about game balance between players.
Each table may have a different answer, but it is not by analyzing each word, comma and period in the rules that you will find the answer.

Some (a lot?) of people don't like to think of their preferred interpretation of the rules as being a "house rule". They want to believe that the way they want the rules to work is also the correct reading of the rules that everyone should be using. It may be a point of pride, it may honestly be way they think the rules read, it may just be pure stubbornness. Other people have no problem with calling it a house rule and moving on with their day - you just don't notice them because they rarely get involved in massive, multi-page debates over the rules.

So they'd rather argue about increasingly esoteric points of grammar and definition instead of saying "OK, that may the RAW and even RAI, but I don't think it should work that way, so I'm ruling it differently for my game".

Fortunately I rarely fall into this trap, because I'm right 99% of the time, even if the rules aren't.

 

[Yunru]

Some (a lot?) of people don't like to think of their preferred interpretation of the rules as being a "house rule". They want to believe that the way they want the rules to work is also the correct reading of the rules that everyone should be using. It may be a point of pride, it may honestly be way they think the rules read, it may just be pure stubbornness. Other people have not problem with calling it a house rule and moving on with their day - you just don't notice them because they rarely get involved in massive, multi-page debates over the rules.

So they'd rather argue about increasingly esoteric points of grammar and definition instead of saying "OK, that may the RAW and even RAI, but I don't think it should work that way, so I'm ruling it differently for my game".

Fortunately I rarely fall into this trap, because I'm right 99% of the time, even if the rules aren't.

You're wrong! Obviously you're right 100% of the time!

...

I just hurt my brain with that.

 

[Arial Black]

TBH, 'resting' isn't really a 'thing', it is 'not a thing'.

Let me explain: light & dark, hot & cold. We think of these pairs of opposites as if they were two equal and opposite sides of the same coin; two 'things' which are opposed to each other.

But that is not the truth. The truth is that, although light is a real force, dark is not. 'Darkness' is just 'lack of light'.

Heat is a real force. It is caused by the vibrations of the molecules that make up the object. The more vibration, the hotter the object. As the vibration slows, the object cools. When the vibration stops, this is absolute zero. You can't have 'negative vibration' to make an object colder than absolute zero! So, 'heat' is a real thing, but 'cold' is not. 'Cold' is just 'lack of heat'.

So why the physics lesson?

'Resting' isn't a thing. 'Resting' is just 'lack of activity'.

In 5E, there are activities you can do while resting and still gain the benefits of a rest: reading, walking, eating, and so on. In fact, it's better to think of it like this: the natural state of being is that you are in a constant state of rest which allows you to constantly refresh your abilities, but this 'resting' state is suspended if you do certain things; things which are 'stressful'. Like fighting, spellcasting, forced marching, being tortured, things of that nature.

At any point, you can ask your DM, "How long is it since we did anything stressful?" If the answer is less than an hour, too bad. If the answer is at least 1 hour but less than 8 hours, you have just had a short rest and get the benefits! If the answer is at least 8 hours, you have just had a long rest and get the benefits, with the additional proviso that you cannot benefit from more than one long rest per day/24 hours.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

'Resting' isn't a thing. 'Resting' is just 'lack of activity'.

Whether that is true of the real world or not is irrelevant, as the 5th edition game gives us a specific definition for "rest" and thus doesn't use the common definition.

In 5E, there are activities you can do while resting and still gain the benefits of a rest: reading, walking, eating, and so on.

That's not quite accurate. 5e defines rest as a time when you are doing only a specific list of activities or less strenuous ones that those. It also happens to define "short rest" as precluding activities that aren't precluded by how it happens to define "long rest", since any amount of spellcasting or fighting will interrupt a short rest, but has no effect upon a long rest until it goes on for at least an hour.

At any point, you can ask your DM, "How long is it since we did anything stressful?" If the answer is less than an hour, too bad. If the answer is at least 1 hour but less than 8 hours, you have just had a short rest and get the benefits! If the answer is at least 8 hours, you have just had a long rest and get the benefits, with the additional proviso that you cannot benefit from more than one long rest per day/24 hours.

Please indicate what passage of text in the rule-book, or comment made by a developer, you feel supports the idea that the hours that make up a long rest can also each make up a short rest?

 

[Arial Black]

Please indicate what passage of text in the rule-book, or comment made by a developer, you feel supports the idea that the hours that make up a long rest can also each make up a short rest?

The rules themselves, when comprehended as intended.

Straight after a (long) rest, you do nothing but stare at paint drying for 45 minutes. Is that 45 mins of rest 'short resting' or 'long resting'?

If it's 'long resting', 15 mins later (when it's been 1 hour since my last stressful activity) do I gain the benefits of a short rest? Of course!

'Resting' doesn't have a type (long or short) attached to it, because 'resting' is not an activity! 'Resting' is a lack of activity. 'Resting' is not 'doing something', it is not doing something.

At the end of a short or long rest, you gain the benefits. But when is that, considering that the rests are 'at least' 1/8 hours?

Imagine you are doing nothing strenuous for 16 hours. When do you get the benefits of a short rest? Long rest?

The way you see it, since the long rest is 16 hours here, then you don't get the benefits of that long rest until the end of the 16th hour. Why? Why don't you get the benefits after 8? How does your body know not to give you the benefits after 8 hours? Does it somehow know the future and that you won't do anything stressful for a few more hours, and so refuse to give you back your hit points and spell slots?

That would be absurd! Your body cannot know that, and has no reason to delay your refreshed state.

The way it works is this: one hour after your last stressful activity, you gain the benefits of a short rest. Why? Because you have fulfilled the short rest conditions as set out in the PHB.

Seven hours after that (making 8 total), you gain the benefits of a long rest, if: you have not engaged in stressful activity for more than one hour during that time, and you haven't already benefited from a long rest today. Why? Because you have fulfilled the long rest conditions set out in the PHB.

If you have fulfilled the conditions for a short or long rest, as set out in the PHB, there is no rules reason to deny those benefits as given by the 5E rules.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

The rules themselves, when comprehended as intended.

Cool. Just shoot me a link to the developer content stating this intent, and we're golden.

Straight after a (long) rest, you do nothing but stare at paint drying for 45 minutes. Is that 45 mins of rest 'short resting' or 'long resting'?

If by "straight after a (long) rest," you are meaning "after having rested for 8 hours", then the 45 minutes watching paint dry is part of - not after - the long rest in question. Because a long rest is at least 8 hours, not 8 hours exactly.

If it's 'long resting', 15 mins later (when it's been 1 hour since my last stressful activity) do I gain the benefits of a short rest? Of course!

There is nothing in the rules text which supports not having to choose which sort of rest you are taking, and thus nothing which supports being able to treat the 8 hours minimum that a long rest is made up of as being 8, or any other number of, "at least 1 hour" short rests.

'Resting' doesn't have a type (long or short) attached to it, because 'resting' is not an activity! 'Resting' is a lack of activity. 'Resting' is not 'doing something', it is not doing something.

The language and layout of the rules text is in direct opposition to your claim. You are using the standard definition of rest, but the game has made its own definition of rest, so the standard definition does not apply.

At the end of a short or long rest, you gain the benefits. But when is that, considering that the rests are 'at least' 1/8 hours?

The answer to "When is that?" is simple; When you do something besides continue to rest.

Imagine you are doing nothing strenuous for 16 hours. When do you get the benefits of a short rest? Long rest?

At the end of that period of time, just before you do something that doesn't count as resting, you get the benefit of whichever type of rest the player has chosen for it to be (though I can't say I can think of a reason why a player would do what is fully within their power and take a 16 hour short rest instead of a 16 hour long rest).

The way you see it, since the long rest is 16 hours here, then you don't get the benefits of that long rest until the end of the 16th hour. Why?

Because that's what the words in the rule book say.

Why don't you get the benefits after 8?

Because the rule book defines a long rest as "at least 8 hours", which is different than had it said "8 hours."

How does your body know not to give you the benefits after 8 hours?

There is no body in question. Characters are not real and do not have bodies. The rules of the game are not the physical laws of their world, they are only device by which us real folk can play a game, and need not be considered in any way other than that.

The way it works is this: one hour after your last stressful activity, you gain the benefits of a short rest. Why? Because you have fulfilled the short rest conditions as set out in the PHB.

Actually, the way it works seems more to be that the players declare their intention to rest, and the DM covers what happens - whether that is the passage of time in which rest is successfully accomplished, of the sort chosen and declared by the players, or events that interrupt or otherwise alter the outcome of the players' declaration.

There is no text in the book which suggests I am actually supposed to be watching the in-game clock to see how long it has been since the last activity not allowed during a rest, and handing out the benefits of a short rest at 1 hour or long rest at 8.

In fact, it is quite the contrary since a single spell cast 30 minutes into a short rest spoils the the rest entirely, but a single spell cast 30 minutes into a long rest doesn't interrupt the rest - clearly supporting the idea that one must choose the sort of rest they are having their character take at the moment they decide they are taking rest.

If you have fulfilled the conditions for a short or long rest, as set out in the PHB, there is no rules reason to deny those benefits as given by the 5E rules.

I haven't agree with that. I have agreed at what exactly it takes to have "fulfilled the conditions for a short or long rest, as set out in the PHB." Specifically that resting for another hour, or longer, after you've supposedly ended a long rest is not fulfilling the conditions of a short rest, but merely ending your long rest an hour later than you supposedly have.

 

[MrHotter]

The rules themselves, when comprehended as intended.

It seems not everyone agrees with what is intended or comprehended. A short or long rest is not just the passage of time. It's a game mechanic that players can use to regain resources.

Just standing in one spot for an hour is not what gives a character back his resources that refresh on a short rest. The players tell the DM that they want to take a short rest and then the DM figures out if it is possible or if there could be complications.

Most of the arguments over short and longs rests reminds me of why WotC had to put in concentration and limit how many long rests you can take in a 24 hour period. Perhaps they should limit the amount of short rests that a character can benefit from between long rests to make players think about how best to preserve their resources.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

At any point, you can ask your DM, "How long is it since we did anything stressful?" If the answer is less than an hour, too bad. If the answer is at least 1 hour but less than 8 hours, you have just had a short rest and get the benefits!

Not that simply having a short rest is sufficient to get all of the benefits of a short rest, of course. If you just finished a short rest, and you totally did have an opportunity to use a medkit and study your spellbook, then that doesn't mean you actually used a medkit or studied your spellbook during that time. At best, you can look back and realize that you should have done those things when you had the chance.

But then again, unless you intentionally set out to take a rest, you never really know with any certainty whether you'll have sufficient time to do those things. (And what's the chance that you'll actually choose to not do anything more strenuous than eating or reading or tending to wounds, if you're not consciously trying to take a short rest? For practical purposes, unexpected rests are a non-event.)