D&D 5E Concentration while Short Resting

[Xetheral]

[MENTION=6701872]AaronOfBarbaria[/MENTION],

Lets say a party is desperately low on HP, but have some HD left. They don't have a secure place to rest, but believe they are in the most-secure place to be found anywhere nearby. From a tactical standpoint, the wisest course of action would be to take a short rest to regain short-rest resources and spend HP, then, somewhat fortified in case they're interrupted, try to take a long rest.

But it sounds like you wouldn't let the party do that? You'd really force them to choose between a short and a long rest, and if they tried to do both (in that order) you'd rule it was a 9-hour short rest? That seems... a convoluted and undesirable outcome? It also seems impossible to describe in the fiction--why is sleeping for 8 hours ineffective just because it follows an hour-long breather?

Furthermore, you seem to be being inconsistant: if you require the players to actively declare what kind of rest they're taking then presumably they represent different in-game activitites. But if they represent different in-game activities, why can't you end one type of rest simply by choosing to start the other? You seem to be simultaneously arguing that they are distinct enough behaviors to require a deliberate choice between them, and yet similar enough that 8 hours of trying to long rest after a short rest can somehow count as a 9 hour short rest.

Finally, your claim that an extended rest delays the benefit of the rest seems to create problems. Consider the following hypothetical: there is a fighter with 30/90 HP, and a wizard with 20/60 HP who both begin a long rest. After 8 hours, the wizard starts to prepare a new spell list. The fighter, bored, keeps resting. By definiton the Wizard has finished his long rest (or else wouldn't be able to prepare a new spell list) and is now at 60/60 HP. Under your interpretation, however, the fighter hasn't finished his long rest and is still at 20/90 HP. Before the wizard is done, both get hit by a 30 HP AoE.... Does the longer-resting fighter really have to wait longer to get his HP back, and as a result fall unconscious before the wizard?

Might I suggest that the "at least 8 hours" part is meant to help the characters rather than hurt them? I think it means (e.g.) a Wizard who sleeps 10 hours can still prepare a new list at the end of their long nap (rather than having missed the opportunity at the 8 hour mark), not that it actually delays the HP and spell slot recovery an extra 2 hours.

 

[Sunseeker]

I don't see why not since arguably concentrating while in battle is much more strenuous on the mind than while concentrating while everyone is chilling and getting some snacks.

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

Party: We rest.

DM: Ok, you make camp, the night closes in and you prepare for the next day..

DM: Shall we say eveyone's ready to leave by dawn?

Party: Sure. Elfy the Bard has been reading and tending to the fire, Babbs the Barbarian is a late riser but yeah, we're up and ready.

DM: Great. With a new day before you and adventure calling, what do you do next?

Party: We rest.

DM: ...huh?

Party: Yeah, we want to rest again. But only for an hour. We'll set the Bard to ring at one-hour-past-dawn.

DM: ...but you've just rested?

Party: Yeah but no we're buffed and ready, we need to regain resources. Wyatt the Warlock wants his Hex back and I need my Goodberry slot back. Plus I spent the morning as an owl doing.. owl stuff.


..

Sure, I can see the reasoning why a player might choose to want to take a short rest after a long rest, though it does strike as trying to game the system. Then again, the fantasy tropes we might call upon to form an expectation of such an occasion rarley, if ever, feature a series of powers that mystically return on either a short or long pause - which themselves, according to the DMG, can be as little as 5 minutes / 1 hour for Epic Heroism play and 8 hours / 7 days for Gritty Realism).

Personally I lump a rest as a rest -- the time you spend and the conditions decide the quality of rest. Even with 8 hours or more of time, a party may only find themselves enjoying 1 hour of actual rest in total. Say, for example, during a harrowing siege by undead forces.

Then, if a player wants another rest after a rest, to take advantage of a class ability that recharges on a short rest, and if the party was under no time constraints, aaaand if every other player was happy (note: not politely tolerating) waiting around for another hour then, hey, go for it. Ideally, we'd make sure this was all AOK and agreed on before characters were even rolled up.

Though personally, I believe it does smack of gaming the system - but then again, we are playing a game! Different groups will prioritize verisimilitude over gamification accordingly, and with a enough fluff anything can be explained away.

 

[The Human Target]

And this is why natural language and rulings not rules and no errata is just terrible.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Lets say a party is desperately low on HP, but have some HD left. They don't have a secure place to rest, but believe they are in the most-secure place to be found anywhere nearby. From a tactical standpoint, the wisest course of action would be to take a short rest to regain short-rest resources and spend HP, then, somewhat fortified in case they're interrupted, try to take a long rest.

I, unsurprisingly I'm sure, disagree that is the wisest course of action since it is not actually possible according to my interpretation of resting. What I would say is the wisest, from a tactical standpoint, is to no longer be anywhere nearby, and as a result find somewhere actually safe enough to confidently take a long rest.

You'd really force them to choose between a short and a long rest, and if they tried to do both (in that order) you'd rule it was a 9-hour short rest?

Yes, I'd force the choice. They choose to rest, and I'll be determining if there are any encounters that come along while they are resting. If they have chosen a short rest, engaging with an encounter is an interruption to their rest and they'll have to start again. If, however, they've chosen a long rest, then engaging with an encounter is only an interruption if they take an hour or longer doing so before returning to their rest efforts. That's more than enough reason to insist the players actually choose what sort of rest they are attempting.

As for treating the players saying "We take a 1-hour short rest, then an 8-hour long rest" and me hearing "we take a 9-hour short rest", that is entirely because the benefits of rest only kick in once the rest has ended - and your rest has not ended if the next thing you intend to do is more rest.

That seems... a convoluted and undesirable outcome? It also seems impossible to describe in the fiction--why is sleeping for 8 hours ineffective just because it follows an hour-long breather?

What seems convoluted to me is the idea that the characters can stop resting without having actually done anything else and then re-start the activity they are clearly already doing. As for the fictional description; what you are hitting is the reason why players are going to choose to take a long rest over taking a short rest unless they know they won't have the time necessary - there will be no ineffective sleep following a breather because the players will describe that as a long rest when they decide it is what they want to try doing.

Furthermore, you seem to be being inconsistant: if you require the players to actively declare what kind of rest they're taking then presumably they represent different in-game activitites. But if they represent different in-game activities, why can't you end one type of rest simply by choosing to start the other? You seem to be simultaneously arguing that they are distinct enough behaviors to require a deliberate choice between them, and yet similar enough that 8 hours of trying to long rest after a short rest can somehow count as a 9 hour short rest.

I'm not being inconsistent at all - I'm using the definitions and conditions for each type of rest presented by the rule book. They are similar, but slightly different, and not being able to end one to immediately begin the other is with a proviso; you can't just choose to do it because that is indistinguishable from continuing whatever sort of rest you were already taking. When you do an activity that actually ends the type of rest you've been having, you can start a new rest of whichever type you like, assuming you wait the necessary length of time in the case of a long rest.

Finally, your claim that an extended rest delays the benefit of the rest seems to create problems. Consider the following hypothetical: there is a fighter with 30/90 HP, and a wizard with 20/60 HP who both begin a long rest. After 8 hours, the wizard starts to prepare a new spell list. The fighter, bored, keeps resting. By definiton the Wizard has finished his long rest (or else wouldn't be able to prepare a new spell list) and is now at 60/60 HP. Under your interpretation, however, the fighter hasn't finished his long rest and is still at 20/90 HP. Before the wizard is done, both get hit by a 30 HP AoE.... Does the longer-resting fighter really have to wait longer to get his HP back, and as a result fall unconscious before the wizard?

It is not my claim that has created the problem here, it is your hypothetical doing that.

For the however many minutes in which the wizard is preparing spells, the fighter can be doing non-rest activities after having also finished their long rest and received the appropriate benefits. Even just choosing to stand watch (beyond the maximum 2 hours allowed, and already done, within the long rest) would do it, but the fighter could be breaking down camp, preparing any animals/wagons, training another party member, scouting ahead a bit, fishing, or any number of activities that aren't continuing to rest when there isn't any reason to do such a thing.

Might I suggest that the "at least 8 hours" part is meant to help the characters rather than hurt them? I think it means (e.g.) a Wizard who sleeps 10 hours can still prepare a new list at the end of their long nap (rather than having missed the opportunity at the 8 hour mark), not that it actually delays the HP and spell slot recovery an extra 2 hours.

It's not the "at least 8 hours" that "hurt them" in this case - it is the players' idea of how the rules work not matching the text of the rules that is causing the "hurt" (with quotes because no one is actually being hurt by anything here).

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

And this is why natural language and rulings not rules and no errata is just terrible.

This issue has nothing to do with "natural language" because it is one of the few places in which 5th edition uses words (specifically "rest") as game-terms rather than in their natural language usage.

It also has nothing to do with "rulings, not rules" because all that means is that the DM is encouraged to make their own ruling if they disagree with what the rules say, and the discussion here is about what the rules actually say, not what the DM is allowed to rule on the matter.

And what on earth do you mean "no errata"? There are errata for each of the 3 main rule-books and for some of the adventure books.

 

[Arial Black]

Not that simply having a short rest is sufficient to get all of the benefits of a short rest, of course. If you just finished a short rest, and you totally did have an opportunity to use a medkit and study your spellbook, then that doesn't mean you actually used a medkit or studied your spellbook during that time. At best, you can look back and realize that you should have done those things when you had the chance.

Actually, although you are allowed to bandage wounds during a short rest (and this is not an activity which will prevent you getting the benefits of the short rest), you are not required to bandage wounds or use medkits etc. in order to gain the benefits of that short rest, even the 'spending hit dice' part!

A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds.

A character can spend one or more Hit Dice at the end of a short rest, up to the character’s maximum number of Hit Dice, which is equal to the character's level. For each Hit Die spent in this way, the player rolls the die and adds the character’s Constitution modifier to it. The character regains hit points equal to the total. The player can decide to spend an additional Hit Die after each roll. A character regains some spent Hit Dice upon finishing a long rest, as explained below.

There is no requirement to do anything at all to gain the benefits of a short rest!

All that is required to gain the benefits of a short rest is spend at least 1 hour not doing anything strenuous! More strenuous, that is, than 'eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds'.

You are in no way required to actually eat, drink, read and/or tend to wounds to get the benefits of a short rest.

What about a long rest?

A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.

At the end of a long rest, a character regains all lost hit points. The character also regains spent Hit Dice, up
to a number of dice equal to half of the character’s total number of them. For example, if a character has eight
Hit Dice, he or she can regain four spent Hit Dice upon finishing a long rest. A character can’t benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period, and a character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of the rest to gain its benefits.

It says that during the (at least) 8 hours 'a character sleeps OR performs light activity (reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for 2 hours max). We cannot believe that it means you must either sleep or perform those specific activities for 8 hours! It must mean that you cannot do anything more strenuous than those activities! I'd be mightily miffed if my DM denied me the long rest benefits because my 'watching paint dry' activity meant that I wasn't performing any of the required list of activities!

Just like short rests, you can do whatever you like during the long rest. But, you don't get the benefits if you engage in 'strenuous activity' for more than an hour. It doesn't have a complete list of activities which are defined as strenuous for rest purposes; it has a partial list (walking, fighting, casting spells) and then, "...or similar adventuring activity."

The DM can use his judgement about whether a particular activity counts as 'strenuous', but we know for a fact that 'fighting' or 'casting spells' IS strenuous activity!

AaronOfBarbaria tells us that we cannot have a short rest straight after a long rest, because that would just be a 9 hour long rest. Ignoring my other objections for a moment, he mentions that we know when a rest ends, because when we do something strenuous then this demonstrates that the rest has ended. Well, since casting spells definitely is strenuous, then casting hex demonstrates that the rest has ended. Since the rest has ended, resting for 1 hour after casting hex would be a new rest.

Unless he believes that until you have engaged in a total of more than 1 hour of casting and/or fighting, you cannot gain the benefits of a long rest! The consequence of such a ruling would be that after a peaceful, uninterrupted nights sleep you would not regain your full hit points or any of the other benefits of a long rest until you had fought or cast spells for over an hour subsequent to waking up!

There are 60 minutes in an hour, ten rounds in a minute, therefore 600 combat rounds in an hour. Is he really saying that after you wake up from 8 hours of blissful, uninterrupted sleep you do not get the benefits of that long rest until you've been in combat for six hundred and one rounds!

 

[The Human Target]

I don't see why not since arguably concentrating while in battle is much more strenuous on the mind than while concentrating while everyone is chilling and getting some snacks.

Putting a straw into a Capri Sun juice pouch can break the focus of even the greatest hero.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Ignoring my other objections for a moment, he mentions that we know when a rest ends, because when we do something strenuous then this demonstrates that the rest has ended. Well, since casting spells definitely is strenuous, then casting hex demonstrates that the rest has ended. Since the rest has ended, resting for 1 hour after casting hex would be a new rest.

That's not quite what I said, and I've already clarified that because casting a single spell is not enough to interrupt a long rest it isn't valid evidence of having done something besides continue your long rest for another hour.

You have to actually do something besides keep doing things you can do while taking a rest.

Unless he believes that until you have engaged in a total of more than 1 hour of casting and/or fighting, you cannot gain the benefits of a long rest!

I was clear in my belief, but I will repeat them because you still haven't understood:

A rest is ended when you move on to doing something that isn't resting (differs slightly by type of rest).

A rest, if your intent is to rest after a particular action, has not actually ended unless the action in question is suitable to interrupt the type of rest you are taking.

They are two entirely separate situations; one involving no intent to rest again until a significantly later time or different circumstance and thus clearly ending the rest, and the other involving intent to return to rest immediately following an action that can be done during a rest without interrupting that rest.

You keep acting as if they are the same, and they are clearly not.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Correct: this is the question.

When looking at the rules we would love to find a statement saying that concentration does/does not prevent benefiting from a short rest. There is no such direct statement.

However, we know that there is an expectation of 2-3 short rests per adventuring day, which is a day chock-full of activity! We also know that there are spells intended to be used on such days which are concentration up to 8 or 24 hours.

Agreed.

Such spells simply would not exist if concentration prevented benefiting from a short rest.

This, however, is not a logically sound argument. While the game designers have said the game was built around having 6-8 "medium to hard" (read: trivial to easy) encounters and 2-3 short rests in one adventuring day, there is no rules requirement that every adventuring day must be so. That's why the game gives you a daily XP budget to spend however you want. Additionally, there is no requirement that when the rest of the party takes a short rest that all characters must take a short rest. If the spellcaster wants to maintain concentration on a spell, they can elect not to gain the benefits of a short rest. Just like a ranger could elect to spend a short rest patrolling the wilderness, or a rogue could elect to spend a short rest scouting the tunnels ahead.

This would be like saying that because the spells that you're likely to cast specifically for resting (alarm, heroes' feast, Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, Leomund's tiny hut, rope trick, etc.) do not require concentration that concentration must not be possible during a short rest. It's an equally anecdotal and poor argument.

There is nothing to indicate that concentration is strenuous. Furthermore, if concentrating on a spell did prevent you benefiting from a short rest, it is inconceivable that the rules fail to mention it!

Given the state of the stealth and hiding rules, I'd strongly disagree here, too.

There are very few spells that are even capable of concentration longer than an hour:

control weather (level 8, 8 hours)
dominate beast (level 7+, 8 hours)
dominate monster (level 9, 8 hours)
dominate person (level 8+, 8 hours)
find the path (level 6, 1 day)
hex (level 3+, 8+ hours)
hunter's mark (level 3+, 8+ hours)
move earth (level 6, 2 hours)
project image (level 7, 1 day)
suggestion (level 2, 8 hours)

Bestow curse at 5th level has a duration of 8 hours, but the spell explicitly doesn't require concentration if cast from a 5th level slot or higher.

Every other spell that requires concentration doesn't last long enough to survive a short rest. The only way to make spells last longer is the Sorcerer's Metamagic, and if I recall correctly that class was rebuilt completely right at the end of playtesting. That's a small enough number of spells over a short enough timeline that I would absolutely believe that the issue never came up in playtesting or design planning. Therefore, it would not be a known issue.

If we're honest, there's only three spells we really expect to encounter on that list: hex, hunter's mark, and suggestion. The rest are so rare they may as well functionally not exist, or are 1 hour spells that a Sorcerer might Extend (invisibility, fly, gaseous form). And I'd still argue that this issue wouldn't even come up if hex and hunter's mark weren't on the list, and the latter of the two is also a pretty rare spell to cast since the Ranger has to be 9th level to do it.



So, ultimately, what we're talking about is how hex works for 5th level Warlocks, and that's it. That makes particular sense because Warlocks have so few spell slots and they're always at highest caster level.

If that's all we're talking about then quite honestly, it really doesn't matter. It's just one spell.



Personally, here's how I look at it: Let's say we haven't decided how long a short rest needs to be. We know in 4e that it was 5 minutes, but that's all.

What are the design requirements for a "short rest"?

1. It must prevent the PC from progressing in the adventure. It's critical that players feel that they need to choose between resting and adventuring.
2. It must be available to the party multiple times each day without mechanical penalty, due to class ability design requirements.
3. It must allow PCs to meaningfully recover some expended resources and use abilities they otherwise cannot.

In other words, "short rest" has to be meaningful.

What design consequences should we have from a "short rest", particularly to reinforce the choice between resting and adventuring?

1. The PCs should essentially be unable to travel or take game actions, excepting those explicitly allowed in their descriptions. Rule of thumb: It's like a lunch break.
2. It should only be possible when PCs feel safe or secure in their person. Rule of thumb: Safe enough to remove armor.
3. It should be treated as a "milestone" that divides up an adventuring day. Rule of thumb: Resources expended before the short rest should not be available after the short rest. Especially long rest resources.
4. It should be long enough for NPCs that are aware of the PCs to react to their presence, but not so long that every short rest is met with an inevitable ambush.
5. It should be long enough to give the PCs pause. Rule of thumb: They shouldn't short rest after every encounter.

Under these requirements, I consistently arrive at a short rest time of 30 minutes except when I look at, "Resources expended before the short rest should not be available after the short rest." I think it's a completely reasonable design goal that buffing spells, in general, should expire over a short rest. Therefore, a short rest needs to last longer than most buffing spells. Looking at the spell list, that pegs us at 1 hour. Doing that means that I don't even need to add a stipulation that any concentration spells automatically end. They just will anyways, essentially.

"Oh, but these are completely arbitrary and made up!"

Yes. It's a thought experiment of how I would design a short rest mechanic, but I think it lines up very well with how the game lays them out. Every time I think about it, the only reason I arrive at 1 hour over a shorter period of time is that desire to forcibly end buff spells.