Concept: ToB-style Casters.

[Morandir Nailo]

Cross-posted at rpg.net.

This is just something that popped in my head the other night while at work (I deliver pizzas and thus spend a lot of time driving around with nothing better to do than think about D&D), so I thought I'd post it for you guys to chew over. It's probably been done before but I haven't read anything like it - using the ToB maneuver mechanic to cast spells.

What I came up with was to create 3 classes: the Sorcerer, the Battle Mage, and the Mesmerist (which obviously needs a better name), which would replace the Wizard and Sorcerer. Like the ToB classes, each of these classes only has access to a few of the schools of magic, to wit:

Divination, Universal - All three have access to these schools.

Sorcerer
Abjuration
Conjuration (Calling and Summoning only)
Necromancy

Battle Mage
Abjuration
Evocation
Transmutation

Mesmerist
Conjuration (Creation and Teleportation only)
Enchantment
Illusion

I'm thinking the actual class progression would look like the Wizard (poor BAB, good Will, d4 HD, same skills, bonus feats and a familiar), but use the Swordsage maneuvers known/readied numbers for spells known/prepared. For cantrips, you would start knowing all from the schools you have access to (the ones in the PHB, anyway), and readying 4.

Casting would work just like initiating a maneuver - you have one "copy" of each known spell readied, which you can then cast once per encounter. Likewise, multiclassing would work the same as multiclassing with the ToB classes. As for recovery, I think a full-round action to recover cast spells would work.

Anyway, that's what I've got. Thoughts?

Mor

 

[Arkhandus]

Problematic. A nice, simple houserule, but problematic.

While it means some difficulty in using multiple Fireballs or similar in a single combat, it makes the casters fully-powered in every fight and every situation out of combat. The only semblance of balance as-is is that casters have to carefully manage their small number of spells per day while a non-caster can fight and use skills at full effectiveness all the time.

Why play a Swordsage, for instance, when this Battlemage can hurl Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, Scorching Rays, Magic Missiles, and such at the same levels a Swordsage would get Death Mark or whatnot? Fireball and Lightning Bolt have greater range and area of effect usually, and don't require getting right in the opponent's face and hitting his AC first. Sure, Death Mark is a bit more impressive in damage for a few levels, but worse overall.

Scorching Ray kicks the crud outta Fan the Flames in just a few levels likewise, and is available sooner. Magic Missile stomps all over the 1st-level maneuvers, though it takes a few levels for it to become entirely superior (at first it's just the auto-hit, force effect, and great range, until it starts growing in damage). Meteor Swarm and Prismatic Spray make Inferno Blast look kinda weak and really limited, especially if Greater Metamagic Rods are involved.

But the real problem isn't so much the damage output (which seesaws back and forth between slightly worse at a few levels to decidedly better at most levels), but the utility capacities. Lots of teleportation. Lots of Knock and Arcane Lock spells. Lots of Summon Monster spells to handle any task with free, magic-using labor. Lots of Dispel Magics and Erases. Lots of Enervates and Contagions. Lots of Fly and Overland Flight spells. Lots of Water Breathing and Stone Shape and Flesh to Stone and Stone to Flesh spells. Lots of Disintegrates and Feebleminds and Cloudkills. Lots of Shatters and Invisibilities and Detect Thoughts and Suggestions. Lots of Charm Persons and Dominate Persons and Geases.

The problem is infinitely worse if these casters have access to divine spells as well as arcane ones.

 

[Morandir Nailo]

You don't see the vastly reduced number of spells known as a balance to this? In this system, a caster will know a little over half as many spells at lvl 20 as a standard Sorc does (25 vs. 43 for the Sorc). He'll have 7 lvl 1 spells, 2 of each level up to 8th, and 4 9th level spells. If we assume the trade-in mechanic is in effect those numbers won't be the same, but that still leaves our Caster making what could be a very difficult choice - some spells just won't be worth trading out.

Furthermore, since he can prep only one "copy" of each spell, at best he'll be throwing those fireballs once every other round, provided he does absolutely nothing for the round in between (making him vulnerable). I dunno about your games, but in mine, combats usually only last about 5-6 rounds. This really kills the "machine-gun" factor.

I agree though, out-of-combat usage could become a problem (though again, this is mitigated by the lack of versatility). Part of solving this would be to make some changes to spells; this needs to be done anyway, since lots of 3.5e spells are just nutso-overpowered and/or completely unnecessary. You could also disallow Casters from changing their prepped spells between encounters. You prep at the beginning of the day, and you can use those spells more-or-less at will, but you can't change them until you've had 8 hours of rest.

Mor

 

[Khuxan]

If this variant doesn't work out for you, consider Recharge Magic. You may find it provides that 'per encounter' feel but better balanced.

Alternately, there are a number of per encounter magic systems out there - even Star Wars Saga Edition has force powers.

 

[Runestar]

I am guessing the spells will have to be toned down somewhat, to account for the possibility of being able to use them repeatedly. Consider the desert wind discipline. You get to use the equivalent of fireball (6d6) only at around lv9, and the 10d6 version at lv15. You may also need to revise certain longer-duration spells (basically those with durations longer than 5 minutes) to avoid an astute caster from simply refreshing it every 5 minutes to get the equivalent of a 24 hour buff.

I agree that it will be problematic, since the spells were designed based off the vancian spellcasting system, and balanced on the assumption that you are casting it for a 1-off effect, not spamming it ever so often.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

A few ideas for balancing the spells:

1) Caster level isn't your level, but the level at which you get the spells. A fireball is cast at CL 5, period. When you would normally have the option to swap spells, you could instead swap caster levels; if you want to keep magic missile and you have an opportunity to swap a lower level spell for a 5th level spell, you could increase your magic missile CL from 1 to 11 instead of swapping a spell.

2) Spells are all 1 level higher. You can't get 9th level spells, and cantrips all count as 1st level spells (i.e., no free cantrips and slots).

3) Spells with ongoing duration can't be cast again until their durations run out. Instantaneous utlity spells can be cast every other encounter. That means only one charm person or water breathing at a time, and you can't cast two of the same teleportation spell in the same encounter.

Using 1 or 2 of those should help balance things a bit; all 3 would be better. I don't think they'd be completely balanced with those changes, but it's better than leaving spells as they are.

 

[Morandir Nailo]

Good ideas for spell balance there (I especially like #2), but I really see balancing spells as a separate issue here; IMO, 3.5 spells need balancing anyway (Polymorph line, I'm looking at you).

Personally I'm inclined to make Teleport's casting time 1 hour, but that's just me. And one other thing I think I would do is only allow spell swaps every 4 levels, instead of every two; since so many spells scale with level, it's not as important that Casters be able to trade up.

Actually a lot of the utility spells could simply have their casting times increased. Charm should be OK though; remember that a Warlock can cast Charm at will. I guess there are quite a few spells which would require tweaking. Bother.

It's funny that no one's mentioned it yet, but Metamagic could become a problem here. Having a Maximized Scorching Ray as one of your readied spells would just be crazy. So what I propose is that Metamagic, rather than raising the level of the spell, uses up a number of your "readied" slots equal to its level adjustment. So a lvl 1 Wizard could have a Maximized Magic Missile readied if he wanted, but nothing else (1 slot for the spell itself, 3 for Maximize). Considering that a Caster will only ever have 12 readied slots, this makes Metamagic very costly, but I think it may be necessary. Of course this would also necessitate getting rid of all those feats that reduce the level adjustment of Metamagic feats.

Mor

 

[Angellis_ater]

An idea for this would be to steal an idea from Psionics. Each spell is cast at "basic caster level" and you have a few (VERY few to keep balance) mana to "augment" or "enhance" a spell. These points are only replenished after a sleep/long rest period.

 

[Morandir Nailo]

Honestly, if I ever play 3.5 again I would really like to switch over to using Psionics for everything, though reflavored as magic. I think it's a very well-balanced system.

Mor

 

[Undercover]

They need more common schools, and spells that could be abused out of combat could be turned into rituals, kinda hard to abuse when the casting time is 30 minutes or more. Why is this sounding like 4e? .... *mutters*