Cap'n Kobold
Hero
OK. We have asked what the concept that needs to be built around is. When the OP responds we can work on that.
D&D 5E Concepts for an arcane half-caster/gish
- Thread starter Einlanzer0
- Start date
OK. We have asked what the concept that needs to be built around is. When the OP responds we can work on that.
jonathonhawke
Explorer
If the concept includes defending mages (as has been suggested here), might not Extra damage mitigation be more appropriate?
That is not a bad idea, though I was trying to very directly address the list of features posted. One of the (minor) issues with that is coming up with something you'd use a slot on that is different than but not grossly better than the early defensive spells like shield, energy absorption and such.
Zardnaar
Legend
Here is how I would build it. Grab the Paladin/Ranger for starters and use it as a template. We already have full and 1/3rd caster gish types. Strp out everthing thats exlusive to the Paladin class when comparing it to the ranger. That leaves.
A weapon style at level 2.
ASI progression
Spell pattern
I would give it fighter saves as buffing could also be a thing. Unless someone gets creative with a spell list and some new spells (convert some 3.5 Duskblade spells and 4E swordmage spells?) we base its spells off intelligence, and let them cast wizard spells or sorcerer spells or something like the Eldritch Knight.
That is our baseline template to build on. Its damage is still going to be lower than the other warrior types as it does not have rage, action surge, hunter class abilities or smite, and it also lacks spells like hunters quarry. We don't have to have it deal the best damage but it needs to be competitive. Paladins good at smiting but 3.5 Complete Arcane had the arcane strike feat which lets you sacrifice spell slots to deal more damage and get a bonus to hit. A 5E conversion would grant advantage to hit and deal 1d8 per level of the spell slot which is less than a Paladin.
Another niche it could have is bonus damage (1d6 perhaps) when it is under the effect of a spell so the niche might be buff and get into combat. You could scale that so the higher level the spell the more damage at a similar rate of say hex damage. Casting Mage Armor gets you a 1d6, greater invisibility maybe 2d6. That gives it a concept and a niche (buff spell+ deal more damage get in there). A level 5 buff spell would grant +3d6 damage.
It also probably going to need some cantrips so perhaps it gets two cantrips and hands free casting when you take the class or at level 2/3. Being able to utilise spells like booming blade and green flameblade is also an option so if its damage is a bit lower than the other classes perhaps it can cast a canrtip as a bonus action around level 11 so in some ways its better than a fighter who get there 3rd attack but the fighter also has a bonus action left over (which is often a 4th attack and 3 attacks plays nice with action surge which our gish won't get).
You could also give it the old sudden metamigc spells but very limited to not step on the sorcerers toes. Perhaps 1/short rest can cast a buff spell as a bonus action so you can use haste for example. Your DPM would be similar to a ranger, your niche would be cantrips and buffing.
Capstone ability at level 20 some limited form of the foresight spell that doesn't last 8 hours.
You could also let it cast some spells like shield of faith that lasts an hour or so (lvl 2 spell perhaps?) and that would alos giove you +1d6 via the class ability that deals more damage if buffed.
A weapon style at level 2.
ASI progression
Spell pattern
I would give it fighter saves as buffing could also be a thing. Unless someone gets creative with a spell list and some new spells (convert some 3.5 Duskblade spells and 4E swordmage spells?) we base its spells off intelligence, and let them cast wizard spells or sorcerer spells or something like the Eldritch Knight.
That is our baseline template to build on. Its damage is still going to be lower than the other warrior types as it does not have rage, action surge, hunter class abilities or smite, and it also lacks spells like hunters quarry. We don't have to have it deal the best damage but it needs to be competitive. Paladins good at smiting but 3.5 Complete Arcane had the arcane strike feat which lets you sacrifice spell slots to deal more damage and get a bonus to hit. A 5E conversion would grant advantage to hit and deal 1d8 per level of the spell slot which is less than a Paladin.
Another niche it could have is bonus damage (1d6 perhaps) when it is under the effect of a spell so the niche might be buff and get into combat. You could scale that so the higher level the spell the more damage at a similar rate of say hex damage. Casting Mage Armor gets you a 1d6, greater invisibility maybe 2d6. That gives it a concept and a niche (buff spell+ deal more damage get in there). A level 5 buff spell would grant +3d6 damage.
It also probably going to need some cantrips so perhaps it gets two cantrips and hands free casting when you take the class or at level 2/3. Being able to utilise spells like booming blade and green flameblade is also an option so if its damage is a bit lower than the other classes perhaps it can cast a canrtip as a bonus action around level 11 so in some ways its better than a fighter who get there 3rd attack but the fighter also has a bonus action left over (which is often a 4th attack and 3 attacks plays nice with action surge which our gish won't get).
You could also give it the old sudden metamigc spells but very limited to not step on the sorcerers toes. Perhaps 1/short rest can cast a buff spell as a bonus action so you can use haste for example. Your DPM would be similar to a ranger, your niche would be cantrips and buffing.
Capstone ability at level 20 some limited form of the foresight spell that doesn't last 8 hours.
You could also let it cast some spells like shield of faith that lasts an hour or so (lvl 2 spell perhaps?) and that would alos giove you +1d6 via the class ability that deals more damage if buffed.
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TheCosmicKid
Hero
You were an expecting a discussion about the meaning of a word to somehow not be semantics?
As far as I can tell, it was only used for gold rush participants in the 1800s, because of the whole "golden fleece" thing, and hasn't really seen much circulation before or since. Searching multiple dictionaries, I don't see a single citation for any other use. If I just Google the word, the results are dominated by the Greek myth and the mollusc, with nothing more "colloquial" in sight. More directly to the point, we here on this forum are presumably your target audience, we probably have above-average educations and functional vocabularies given the demographics of D&D, and nobody seems to be comfortable with understanding this term the way you intend it. And that's the basic problem I've been trying to warn you about. It doesn't matter what the dictionary says. If you have to accompany something you've written with a dictionary citation, it's fair to say that what you've written has not effectively communicated your ideas.
And you are projecting. You don't think we should cling so tightly to our notions? Maybe open your own mind to the possibility that "argonaut" might not be a great choice. You don't think we should argue with emotion? Maybe stop lashing out at people who are trying to give you feedback.
cbwjm
Seb-wejem
I've only ever known Argonaut to mean the warriors sailing in the Argo with Jason. Say what you like about the name swordmage but at least when you read it you have some idea of this being a sword using mage. If, for example, you created this class and put it on the DMs guild with the name Argonaut, I'd probably skip over it thinking that if I wanted to create an Argonaut I can just give a fighter the sailor background.
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Carlsen Chris
Explorer
Gish? The only Gish I'll ever have use for is Lillian Gish, thank you very much.
steeldragons
Steeliest of the dragons
I hate "gish." It means nothing. It has no real world association or interpretation. It's a made up word for D&D, originally and solely referring to Githyanki (a race also made up whole cloth for D&D) fighter/magic-users. It's a convenient short hand for use among D&D forum people. It's short -which everyone always loves when you have to type it out. But it has zero impact or meaning. It's a shorthand, at best, the D&D equivalent of anagrammatic language used in texting. Not a class name nor conveyor of concept.
All that said, here's my guy...
Arcane Half-caster Professional Adventurer Pal referenced, heretofore, as "Quester" for typing/simplicity's sake.
HD/HP: d10/10 + Con. bonus at first level, + d10 + Con. mod. per level
ARMOR: All armor, and shields
WEAPONS: all simple, all martial
TOOLS: Thieves tools or 1 tool set of your choice.
SKILLS: Choose 3 from: Arcana, Athletics, History, Investigation, Medicine, Stealth, Survival
SAVES: Constitution, Intelligence
EQUIPMENT
1. a) Leather armor, 1 martial weapon, 1 short bow /20 arrows or b) Scale armor and 2 short swords or 2 simple melee weapons.
2. a) Spell component pouch or b) simple weapon
3. A spellbook.
4. a) dungeoneer's packs; b) scholar's pack; or c) explorer's pack
Prof. bonus as normal, Spell progression, as the paladin. See recommended spell list in previous post. Features progression as Ranger.
1st [2]: Arcane Sense: 60' radius, sense elemental, fae, or undead, sense any location/area within the same radius that has been enchanted by arcane magic (as by illusions, Guards & Wards, a teleportation portal, etc...). 1 + Int. mod times per long rest.
Venturing Expertise: As long as you are not wearing heavy armor you have advantage on one type of ability checks or saves against effects you can see (such as traps, spells) of their choice. Once chosen, the ability can not be changed. You gain additional abilities to apply this benefit at 6th and 14th levels. You can not use this feature if you are blinded, deafened, or incapacitated.
2nd [2]: Fighting Style, Spellcasting (spellcasting ability: Int.)
3rd [2]: Quester Archetype,
Eldritch Action: Take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. You may use this bonus action 1) use the Attack action to make an additional weapon attack with a weapon you have in hand and cast a spell with a casting time of 1 action or less as a single attack; 3) Spend a spell slot to make a magically "charged" weapon attack that deals an additional d6 force damage along with normal weapon damage (and appropriate modifiers) per level of the spell slot used.
4th: ASI
5th: Arcane Recovery (as the wizard feature) Once per day after a short rest, regain up to half your level of expended spell slots.
6th [2 improvements]: Arcane Sense Improvement: Your Arcane Sense range extends to 100'.
Venturing Expertise improvement: Choose another ability to gain advantage on checks and saves.
7th: Archetype Feature
8th[ASI +1]: ASI,
Eldritch Smite: when you use your Eldritch Action to spend a slot to magically charge your weapon attack, your attack now adds 2d8 + d8 per spell level above 1st. The dice increase to d10 if the target is undead or elemental.
9th: -
10th [1 improvement +1]: Arcane Sense improvement: You can now sense arcane magic effects upon individual persons or any innately magical beings (creatures with the Innate Spell Casting feature) and extraplanar creatures (dragons, celestials, fiends) within 100'.
Aura of Protection: as the paladin ability; Starting at 10th level, whenever you or a friendly creature within 10 feet of you must make a saving throw, the creature gains a bonus to the saving throw equal to your Intelligence modifier (with a minimum bonus of +1). You must be conscious to grant this bonus. At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet.
11th: Archetype Feature
12th: ASI
13th: -
14th [1 improvement +1]: Venturing Expertise improvement: Choose another ability to gain advantage on checks and saves. Also, you can now use this feature while wearing heavy armors.
Indomitable: as the fighter feature; reroll a failed save once per long rest.
15th: Archetype Feature
16th: ASI
17th: -
18th [1]: Aura of Protection improvement (30' radius)
19th: ASI
20th [1]: Spell Mastery: as the wizard feature; choose one 1st level spell and one 2nd level you can cast them at their original spell level without spending a spell slot. If you want to cast at a higher slot, the slot must be used as normal. You may change these chosen "mastered" spells after a long rest.
QUESTER Archetypes
The default guy who adds more "Battlemaster/Maneuver Fightery"
1 guy who adds more "Skillsy Thiefy"
1 guy who adds more "Loremaster Bardy/Druidy?"
All that said, here's my guy...
Arcane Half-caster Professional Adventurer Pal referenced, heretofore, as "Quester" for typing/simplicity's sake.
HD/HP: d10/10 + Con. bonus at first level, + d10 + Con. mod. per level
ARMOR: All armor, and shields
WEAPONS: all simple, all martial
TOOLS: Thieves tools or 1 tool set of your choice.
SKILLS: Choose 3 from: Arcana, Athletics, History, Investigation, Medicine, Stealth, Survival
SAVES: Constitution, Intelligence
EQUIPMENT
1. a) Leather armor, 1 martial weapon, 1 short bow /20 arrows or b) Scale armor and 2 short swords or 2 simple melee weapons.
2. a) Spell component pouch or b) simple weapon
3. A spellbook.
4. a) dungeoneer's packs; b) scholar's pack; or c) explorer's pack
Prof. bonus as normal, Spell progression, as the paladin. See recommended spell list in previous post. Features progression as Ranger.
1st [2]: Arcane Sense: 60' radius, sense elemental, fae, or undead, sense any location/area within the same radius that has been enchanted by arcane magic (as by illusions, Guards & Wards, a teleportation portal, etc...). 1 + Int. mod times per long rest.
Venturing Expertise: As long as you are not wearing heavy armor you have advantage on one type of ability checks or saves against effects you can see (such as traps, spells) of their choice. Once chosen, the ability can not be changed. You gain additional abilities to apply this benefit at 6th and 14th levels. You can not use this feature if you are blinded, deafened, or incapacitated.
2nd [2]: Fighting Style, Spellcasting (spellcasting ability: Int.)
3rd [2]: Quester Archetype,
Eldritch Action: Take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. You may use this bonus action 1) use the Attack action to make an additional weapon attack with a weapon you have in hand and cast a spell with a casting time of 1 action or less as a single attack; 3) Spend a spell slot to make a magically "charged" weapon attack that deals an additional d6 force damage along with normal weapon damage (and appropriate modifiers) per level of the spell slot used.
4th: ASI
5th: Arcane Recovery (as the wizard feature) Once per day after a short rest, regain up to half your level of expended spell slots.
6th [2 improvements]: Arcane Sense Improvement: Your Arcane Sense range extends to 100'.
Venturing Expertise improvement: Choose another ability to gain advantage on checks and saves.
7th: Archetype Feature
8th[ASI +1]: ASI,
Eldritch Smite: when you use your Eldritch Action to spend a slot to magically charge your weapon attack, your attack now adds 2d8 + d8 per spell level above 1st. The dice increase to d10 if the target is undead or elemental.
9th: -
10th [1 improvement +1]: Arcane Sense improvement: You can now sense arcane magic effects upon individual persons or any innately magical beings (creatures with the Innate Spell Casting feature) and extraplanar creatures (dragons, celestials, fiends) within 100'.
Aura of Protection: as the paladin ability; Starting at 10th level, whenever you or a friendly creature within 10 feet of you must make a saving throw, the creature gains a bonus to the saving throw equal to your Intelligence modifier (with a minimum bonus of +1). You must be conscious to grant this bonus. At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet.
11th: Archetype Feature
12th: ASI
13th: -
14th [1 improvement +1]: Venturing Expertise improvement: Choose another ability to gain advantage on checks and saves. Also, you can now use this feature while wearing heavy armors.
Indomitable: as the fighter feature; reroll a failed save once per long rest.
15th: Archetype Feature
16th: ASI
17th: -
18th [1]: Aura of Protection improvement (30' radius)
19th: ASI
20th [1]: Spell Mastery: as the wizard feature; choose one 1st level spell and one 2nd level you can cast them at their original spell level without spending a spell slot. If you want to cast at a higher slot, the slot must be used as normal. You may change these chosen "mastered" spells after a long rest.
QUESTER Archetypes
The default guy who adds more "Battlemaster/Maneuver Fightery"
1 guy who adds more "Skillsy Thiefy"
1 guy who adds more "Loremaster Bardy/Druidy?"
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Zardnaar
Legend
Two subclasses could work. One could be defense based and the other focused on damage. Still need something for extra damage for both like how paladins can smite and rangers get hunters quarry and hunter archetype subclass.
A higher level ability cantrip casting as a bonus action perhaps some sort of elemental based weapon damage along the lines of hex or hunters quarry levels of damage.
A higher level ability cantrip casting as a bonus action perhaps some sort of elemental based weapon damage along the lines of hex or hunters quarry levels of damage.
steeldragons
Steeliest of the dragons
I'm pretty sure allowing the extra attack action -either the weapon and spell at the same time or "magically charge" your weapon attack for extra damage (a la smite), are their "extra damage" mechanic. So I don't see a "need" for something giving them MORE extra damage.
Cantrips, for me, are off the table because they are 5e half-casters. 5 spell levels of progression. No cantrips. That's the 5e half-caster framework.
I could see altering the "Eldritch Smite" ability to allow the class to alter the damage type for their magical damage. That's easy enough.
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