Corrections to Monsters in the CC

Cleon

Legend
Noticed an inconsistency in the Agta's Rend damage:

Special Attacks: Change size, great roar, rend 2d6+10, spell-like abilities

Rend (Ex): If an agta hits with both slam attacks, it latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an additional 4d6+10 points of damage.

Since the size-changed stats for the Agta all use twice the claw damage dice of that size and the base size agta has 1d6 damage claws I'll assume the Special Attacks version is the correct one.
 

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Cleon

Legend
Just noticed some significant problems with the Cave Lord conversion's Speed, Full Attack and Saving Throws:

Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d8+6) and bite +7 melee (1d6+3)
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +2

The saves obviously forgot to include its ability score adjustments, with Con 20 and Dex 16 they should be Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +2.

So what's the problem with the attack line? Cave Lords don't have claw and bite attacks! When the late lamented shade posted the following AD&D stats:

AD&D Game: AC 3; Mv 15; HD 6+6; THAC0 15; #AT 3 (claw/claw/bite); Dmg 1d8+2/1d8+2/1d6; SZ H (15' tall); INT Average-Very (8-12); ML 14; AL CE; XP 650. These giants can leap up to 60 feet horizontally and 30 feet vertically.

He'd erroneously posted the the Desolation Giant's stats from the next page of Dragon Magazine #256 (1999). The correct AD&D stats are:


Cave Lords

AD&D Game: AC 3; MV 9; HD 6+1; THAC0 15; #AT 1; Dmg 1d10+5 or by weapon type +5; SZ L (8–12′ tall); INT Very-High (11–14); ML 15; AL CE; XP 650.​

So the Goblin Giant should be smarter, with a +1 or +2 Intelligence bonus, a bit slower (maybe base 30 ft. and wearing armour?) and be armed with weapons (presumably giant versions of those favoured by goblins?).

There's also a typo in the text "They are often acceptive to offers of alliances and truces" which I think should be "receptive".
 
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Cleon

Legend
How do we know which monsters aren’t in the zip collection? Also is there a list of all unconverted CC monsters?

Unfortunately no.

There are a number of Indexes of Unconverted Monsters, but (a) they're separate indexes (so aren't a single list of unconverted CC monsters), (b) they're all out of date (I can't edit them to add Newly Completed Creatures) since they were created by the late lamented Shade), and (c) they're incomplete (I often stumble upon new monsters that aren't in the Indexes or Echohawk's Complete Monster Index).

I try to update the zip collection regularly so newly added conversions get added to it fairly quickly (although amendments & corrections to existing conversions take some time).

If a particular monster doesn't appear in the list, it's usually easiest to post a request for conversion here. Although at the snail's pace this board is currently working it might be a while before a completed conversion appears.

Don't forget that if a monster has 3E stats in a WotC published source it won't appear in the CC, even if I disagree with the official stats (which is why I've done a few reinterpretations as Cleon Special homebrews).
 

Cleon

Legend
So I was going through the various kinds of Great Cats in D&D and noticed Echohawk's Index included Minimal versions of them.

Checking the Creature Catalog's Minimal Template I found it had a couple of problems.

Firstly, the Hit Dice entry cuts off half way through the second sentence "The number of hit dice is 1/4 of the base creature, rounded down. If the base creature had 2-3 HD".

Presumably that ought to continue something along the lines "If the base creature had 2-3 HD the minimal has 1/2 HD, if the base creature has a single Hit Dice the minimal has 1/4 HD."

Secondly, the 3E rules tend to have Hit Dice be proportional to length, with an increase of one size category doubling the dimensions (e.g. Medium creatures are 4 to 8 feet, Large creatures are 8 to 16 feet) and doubling the Hit Dice. So why does the minimal (which is half-size) have one-quarter the Hit Dice? Shouldn't it either be one-half Hit Dice or (my preference) still be one-quarter Hit Dice but be two size categories smaller and therefore be 25% the dimensions instead of 50%.

Thirdly, there are a couple of extraneous terms that need removing, the "Special Attacks: Attacks:" should be "Attacks:" and the "Special Qualities: Face/Reach:" should be "Face/Reach:".

A lesser point is that the 1E version of the Minimal has increased resistance to Poison and Death effects.

Quoting Monster Manual II (1983): "Since they are the products of magic they gain +2 on all saving throws and gain the saving throw of the full-sized mammal vs. death and poison. They gain +4 to saving throws vs. any spell that will charm them, including the druid spell animal friendship."

However, this ability is missing from the 2E Monstrous Compendium version, while the Creature Catalog template has "Additionally, they receive a +2 to save against poison to help them against poisonous predators" which, if nothing else is a bit confusingly worded. Wouldn't it be better to say the bonus increases to +4 for saves against poison? However, I'd also prefer if some greater reduction was substituted - maybe one-quarter damage from poison and death effects (with death spells treating them as if they had quadruple their actual Hit Dice)?

When we get around to doing a revised 3.5 Template for the CC I'd like to clear up those issues.

Oh, I just remembered another issue. The CC Minimal template's Creating a Minimal section starts: "Minimal" is a template that can be added to any normal mammalian animal which is medium-sized or larger.

However, the AD&D Minimal entry includes stats for Baboon, Badger, Wild Dog, Hyena and Warthog which are all Small sized in AD&D.

There's also the Lynx, which oddly enough does not appear to have official AD&D stats for - the only entries are for the Giant Lynx, with is a sapient oversized version. They are listed as "HD 1/4, 1 attack, 1 damage" which suggests the base animal is 1 Hit Dice and has a single attack that does maybe 1d4 or 1d6 damage.

Note that Baboons and Hyenas are Medium sized in the 3E SRD, not Small as they are in AD&D.
 

Curandin

Villager
Thanks guys for all your hard work over the years. I am going to use the Crystal Ooze and Wraithworm in this wekend's aventure - can anyone guess the adventure?
 

Cleon

Legend
Thanks guys for all your hard work over the years. I am going to use the Crystal Ooze and Wraithworm in this wekend's aventure - can anyone guess the adventure?

Well the only adventure I can think of with Wraithworms in it is Dead Gods, so I'd guess that one.
 

Curandin

Villager
Spot on! I have applied a paragon template to the tower wraithworm just to frighten them when they find it again in their "present day form" sliced and diced!
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Thanks guys for all your hard work over the years. I am going to use the Crystal Ooze and Wraithworm in this wekend's aventure - can anyone guess the adventure?
You're welcome!

And let's look at those Minimal fixes in the 3.5 updates. Want to put that template in the queue for the updates thread?
 

Cleon

Legend
You're welcome!

And let's look at those Minimal fixes in the 3.5 updates. Want to put that template in the queue for the updates thread?

Rather than adding the Minimal to Creature Catalogue Overhaul Project Revisited I think I'll add a thread just with a "3.5 Update queue" just so we can keep track of them more easily.

We've already got the Afanc 3.5 overhaul in progress, so sticking a Minimal template in the middle of it would just be confusing!
 

Cleon

Legend
Rather than adding the Minimal to Creature Catalogue Overhaul Project Revisited I think I'll add a thread just with a "3.5 Update queue" just so we can keep track of them more easily.

We've already got the Afanc 3.5 overhaul in progress, so sticking a Minimal template in the middle of it would just be confusing!

Well I started a Queue of Pending CC Corrections and 3.5 Upgrades thread, but there's some bug that means the only thread prefix available was "Review". I tried "(No prefix)" but just got "Oops! We ran into some problems. Please select a prefix."

I guess I'll just have to wait until a "(No prefix)" or "3.5" prefix is available again so I can edit the thread to a more appropriate prefix.
 

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