Corrections to Monsters in the CC


log in or register to remove this ad

Cleon

Hero
While creating a By-CR list of Fey for the Caprine conversion I remembered a few issues with the CC Index's Challenge Ratings.

The CR in the index includes both numbers-with-slashes and fraction characters (i.e. a half appears as both "1/2" and "½") which makes sorting and searching for a low-challenge creature problematic.

It seems more practical to replace the character-fractions with slash-fractions (i.e. ½ => 1/2) since there are some fractions in the CC which don't have characters in the standard basic character sets such as 1/5 and 1/6.

While I'm doing that, there are some CR listings with an extraneous leading zero holding over from the old Index, including some fractions (such as the "01/10" Rot Grub) that just look a bit ugly so I might as well prettify them by stripping the unnecessary "0".

Shouldn't be difficult, just a few Find-Replace operations in Excel.

There is another issue which would be a little more time-consuming to address (assuming we decide it's appropriate).

A few monsters have variants or dependent creatures of a different CR - i.e. Gibberspawn or the Lubin variant of the Urisk - which I'm wondering about giving separate italicized index entries like the Camarilla+Xytar has.

Also, the flying versions of the 3.5 Greater Urchins don't have their CRs listed in the Index. Should put those in too.
 

Cleon

Hero
There is another issue which would be a little more time-consuming to address (assuming we decide it's appropriate).

Looking through the Index I noticed a few entries that could do with rephrasing. For example, the "Ant, Velvet Insect Swarm" would work better as "Ant Swarm, Velvet" or "Ant Swarm, Velvet (Insect Swarm, Velvet Ants)" with similar changes for the Grasshopper and Locust swarms. Currently a text search for Ant Swarm/Grasshopper Swarm/Locust Swarm won't return any hits (0r a search for "Swarm, Ant" for that matter). Also, it implies the existence of a swarming "Velvet Insect" that doesn't occur in AD&D!
 

Cleon

Hero
Just noticed that the Seelie Faerie and Unseelie Faerie both have Challenge Rating 1. These Faerie conversions have CRs that vary with size much like the SRD Elementals and it's only the Diminutive Faeries that are CR 2. I'll alter it to "CR: Varies" in the next update.

Oh, and I'll also tweak the Insect Swarm names.
 

Cleon

Hero
During the Awnshegh Kraken conversion I reviewed the Awnshegh Ice Fiend that's already on the CC and noticed its breath weapon DCs were wrong:

Winter Form: Breath weapon DC 23; but 20 HD (+10) plus Con 21 (+5) should give it DC 25.
Autumn/Spring Form: Breath weapon DC 19); but 15 HD (+7) plus Con 19 (+4) should give it DC 21.

Ugh! It looks like the Fort saves are wrong too:

Winter Form: Fort +16, but 20 HD (+12) plus Con 21 (+5) should give it +17.
Autumn/Spring Form: Fort +16, but 15 HD (+9) plus Con 19 (+4) should give it +14.

Did we tweak its Con at some point?

Anyhow, I'd better go through the statblocks and check for errors just to be safe…

…nope, the rest of the numbers look fine.

Unfortunately I uploaded a CC update yesterday and it's not worth it doing a new upload just to change four numbers. It can wait for the next one. Might as well reformat it to be a bit prettier while I'm at it.

I can't help thinking we should add "An ice fiend can't use its breath weapon during Summer" to that special attack's description.

EDIT: Heck, I just added that to the corrected version. It seemed sensible at the time.
 
Last edited:

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
OK, I've been behind on this thread, and you've found a few things! All this looks reasonable. I agree to the Ice Fiend changes.

What about Swarm, Velvet Ant? Or Velvet Ant Swarm? Or something. Or just list it many times. :p
 

Cleon

Hero
OK, I've been behind on this thread, and you've found a few things! All this looks reasonable. I agree to the Ice Fiend changes.

Done.

What about Swarm, Velvet Ant? Or Velvet Ant Swarm? Or something. Or just list it many times. :p

I tweaked the ( CC Index ).htm file of the latest Creature Catalog download with multiple variants of the Insect Swarm names.

Although checking it I didn't include "Swarm, Velvet Ant" amongst them. Better add it in the next update!
 

Cleon

Hero
I've just noticed the Adaro incorporates a Flying Fish Swarm entry. Should I cut this out as a separate entry like we did with the Mosquito Swarm, which was originally part of the Windigo entry?

Even if we leave it in the Adaro I think it needs a few scraps of flavour text and to be listed in the CC Index.
 

Cleon

Hero
Noticed the Faerie Phiz has an extraneous question mark in its Camouflage Special Quality: "Elves and druids receive a +2(?) bonus on their checks."

I'll remove it in the next update.
 

Cleon

Hero
The Faerie Dragon has improved invisibility, Spell Resistance 21 and can cast spells as either a 6th level sorcerer or an 8th level druid.

Which makes Challenge Rating 2 seem a bit low!

However, if we're going to change the CR we'd presumably want to update it to 3.5 while we're at it.
 

Cleon

Hero
Noticed an inconsistency in the Agta's Rend damage:

Special Attacks: Change size, great roar, rend 2d6+10, spell-like abilities

Rend (Ex): If an agta hits with both slam attacks, it latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an additional 4d6+10 points of damage.

Since the size-changed stats for the Agta all use twice the claw damage dice of that size and the base size agta has 1d6 damage claws I'll assume the Special Attacks version is the correct one.
 

Cleon

Hero
Just noticed some significant problems with the Cave Lord conversion's Speed, Full Attack and Saving Throws:

Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d8+6) and bite +7 melee (1d6+3)
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +2

The saves obviously forgot to include its ability score adjustments, with Con 20 and Dex 16 they should be Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +2.

So what's the problem with the attack line? Cave Lords don't have claw and bite attacks! When the late lamented shade posted the following AD&D stats:

AD&D Game: AC 3; Mv 15; HD 6+6; THAC0 15; #AT 3 (claw/claw/bite); Dmg 1d8+2/1d8+2/1d6; SZ H (15' tall); INT Average-Very (8-12); ML 14; AL CE; XP 650. These giants can leap up to 60 feet horizontally and 30 feet vertically.

He'd erroneously posted the the Desolation Giant's stats from the next page of Dragon Magazine #256 (1999). The correct AD&D stats are:


Cave Lords

AD&D Game: AC 3; MV 9; HD 6+1; THAC0 15; #AT 1; Dmg 1d10+5 or by weapon type +5; SZ L (8–12′ tall); INT Very-High (11–14); ML 15; AL CE; XP 650.​

So the Goblin Giant should be smarter, with a +1 or +2 Intelligence bonus, a bit slower (maybe base 30 ft. and wearing armour?) and be armed with weapons (presumably giant versions of those favoured by goblins?).

There's also a typo in the text "They are often acceptive to offers of alliances and truces" which I think should be "receptive".
 
Last edited:

Cleon

Hero
How do we know which monsters aren’t in the zip collection? Also is there a list of all unconverted CC monsters?

Unfortunately no.

There are a number of Indexes of Unconverted Monsters, but (a) they're separate indexes (so aren't a single list of unconverted CC monsters), (b) they're all out of date (I can't edit them to add Newly Completed Creatures) since they were created by the late lamented Shade), and (c) they're incomplete (I often stumble upon new monsters that aren't in the Indexes or Echohawk's Complete Monster Index).

I try to update the zip collection regularly so newly added conversions get added to it fairly quickly (although amendments & corrections to existing conversions take some time).

If a particular monster doesn't appear in the list, it's usually easiest to post a request for conversion here. Although at the snail's pace this board is currently working it might be a while before a completed conversion appears.

Don't forget that if a monster has 3E stats in a WotC published source it won't appear in the CC, even if I disagree with the official stats (which is why I've done a few reinterpretations as Cleon Special homebrews).
 

Cleon

Hero
So I was going through the various kinds of Great Cats in D&D and noticed Echohawk's Index included Minimal versions of them.

Checking the Creature Catalog's Minimal Template I found it had a couple of problems.

Firstly, the Hit Dice entry cuts off half way through the second sentence "The number of hit dice is 1/4 of the base creature, rounded down. If the base creature had 2-3 HD".

Presumably that ought to continue something along the lines "If the base creature had 2-3 HD the minimal has 1/2 HD, if the base creature has a single Hit Dice the minimal has 1/4 HD."

Secondly, the 3E rules tend to have Hit Dice be proportional to length, with an increase of one size category doubling the dimensions (e.g. Medium creatures are 4 to 8 feet, Large creatures are 8 to 16 feet) and doubling the Hit Dice. So why does the minimal (which is half-size) have one-quarter the Hit Dice? Shouldn't it either be one-half Hit Dice or (my preference) still be one-quarter Hit Dice but be two size categories smaller and therefore be 25% the dimensions instead of 50%.

Thirdly, there are a couple of extraneous terms that need removing, the "Special Attacks: Attacks:" should be "Attacks:" and the "Special Qualities: Face/Reach:" should be "Face/Reach:".

A lesser point is that the 1E version of the Minimal has increased resistance to Poison and Death effects.

Quoting Monster Manual II (1983): "Since they are the products of magic they gain +2 on all saving throws and gain the saving throw of the full-sized mammal vs. death and poison. They gain +4 to saving throws vs. any spell that will charm them, including the druid spell animal friendship."

However, this ability is missing from the 2E Monstrous Compendium version, while the Creature Catalog template has "Additionally, they receive a +2 to save against poison to help them against poisonous predators" which, if nothing else is a bit confusingly worded. Wouldn't it be better to say the bonus increases to +4 for saves against poison? However, I'd also prefer if some greater reduction was substituted - maybe one-quarter damage from poison and death effects (with death spells treating them as if they had quadruple their actual Hit Dice)?

When we get around to doing a revised 3.5 Template for the CC I'd like to clear up those issues.

Oh, I just remembered another issue. The CC Minimal template's Creating a Minimal section starts: "Minimal" is a template that can be added to any normal mammalian animal which is medium-sized or larger.

However, the AD&D Minimal entry includes stats for Baboon, Badger, Wild Dog, Hyena and Warthog which are all Small sized in AD&D.

There's also the Lynx, which oddly enough does not appear to have official AD&D stats for - the only entries are for the Giant Lynx, with is a sapient oversized version. They are listed as "HD 1/4, 1 attack, 1 damage" which suggests the base animal is 1 Hit Dice and has a single attack that does maybe 1d4 or 1d6 damage.

Note that Baboons and Hyenas are Medium sized in the 3E SRD, not Small as they are in AD&D.
 

Curandin

Villager
Thanks guys for all your hard work over the years. I am going to use the Crystal Ooze and Wraithworm in this wekend's aventure - can anyone guess the adventure?
 

Cleon

Hero
Thanks guys for all your hard work over the years. I am going to use the Crystal Ooze and Wraithworm in this wekend's aventure - can anyone guess the adventure?

Well the only adventure I can think of with Wraithworms in it is Dead Gods, so I'd guess that one.
 

Curandin

Villager
Spot on! I have applied a paragon template to the tower wraithworm just to frighten them when they find it again in their "present day form" sliced and diced!
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Thanks guys for all your hard work over the years. I am going to use the Crystal Ooze and Wraithworm in this wekend's aventure - can anyone guess the adventure?
You're welcome!

And let's look at those Minimal fixes in the 3.5 updates. Want to put that template in the queue for the updates thread?
 

Cleon

Hero
You're welcome!

And let's look at those Minimal fixes in the 3.5 updates. Want to put that template in the queue for the updates thread?

Rather than adding the Minimal to Creature Catalogue Overhaul Project Revisited I think I'll add a thread just with a "3.5 Update queue" just so we can keep track of them more easily.

We've already got the Afanc 3.5 overhaul in progress, so sticking a Minimal template in the middle of it would just be confusing!
 

Cleon

Hero
Rather than adding the Minimal to Creature Catalogue Overhaul Project Revisited I think I'll add a thread just with a "3.5 Update queue" just so we can keep track of them more easily.

We've already got the Afanc 3.5 overhaul in progress, so sticking a Minimal template in the middle of it would just be confusing!

Well I started a Queue of Pending CC Corrections and 3.5 Upgrades thread, but there's some bug that means the only thread prefix available was "Review". I tried "(No prefix)" but just got "Oops! We ran into some problems. Please select a prefix."

I guess I'll just have to wait until a "(No prefix)" or "3.5" prefix is available again so I can edit the thread to a more appropriate prefix.
 

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top