Corrections to Monsters in the CC

[Cleon]

I'm ok with your proposed fixes, including your revision above.

Okay, I've just amended the master copy so the corrections will appear in the next CC update.

Fixed a few typos - a "determin" missing an "e" plus a few "/'" apostrophes.

Also gave Alcyoneus a Combat line with the tactics "Always eager to rage and charge into battle, Alcyoneus prefers melee combat with his longspear".

 

[Cleon]

So now the Gargantes are out of the way shall we do the next correction in the Update Queue?

That'd be the Cave Lord if we go alphabetically.

 

[Cleon]

Cave Lord Proposed Corrections
Okay, in stat block order.

To account for the low speed (originally 9), I favour giving it Hide armour like an ogre and the same 30 ft. base speed as a goblin. That'd increase the AC to 20, the same as the SRD Hill Giant. Conveniently the Dragon #256 Cave Lord has AC 3 like a 2E AD&D Hill Giant.

Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares); base speed 30 ft.
Armor Class: 20 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +5 natural, +3 hide armor), touch 12, flat-footed 17

Or we could just drop the Speed to 20 ft., but that isn't my preferred solution.

Speed #2: 20 ft. (4 squares)

Since Cave Lords use weapons not claws and fangs, it seems simplest to just give them the standard armament of a goblin or bugbear:

Attack: Morningstar +9 melee (2d6+9) or javelin +6 ranged (1d8+6)
Full Attack: Morningstar +9 melee (2d6+9) or javelin +6 ranged (1d8+6)

The cave lord doesn't have the Rend special attack. I'm inclined to give it some special ability to command goblins to make up for that.

Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Caveborn, damage reduction 10/slashing or piercing, darkvision 60 ft., goblin suzerain, low-light vision

The Intelligence, Charisma and probably Wisdom should be higher. The Dragonlance SAGA stats give it an Intellect of 6 (Reason/Perception) and an Essence of 8 (Spirit/Presence - the equivalent to Charisma). Human PCs have a range from 1 to 9, so a 6 is above average Intelligence and an 8 is very high - the same as SAGA's Sirine, Huldrefolk, Behir, Aurak Draconian and a standard Young Dragon as well as many incorporeal undead including the Ghost, Spectre and Wraith. Let's say Charisma 15 like the SRD Wraith, an Intelligence score with a +1 ability modifier (so Int 12 or 13) and a similar score in Wisdom. It seems appropriate to put the higher number in Intelligence since they're described as crafty buggers!

Abilities: Str 23, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 15

That'll increase its Skills and Saves, I'd invest the nine extra skill points from its +1 Int modifier in Diplomacy, Listen and Spot (3 SPs apiece):

Saves: Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +3
Skills: Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7 (+15 vs smaller goblins), Disguise +2 (+4 acting), Intimidate +7 (+15 vs smaller goblins), Listen +7, Move Silently +7, Spot +7
27 SPs: Bluff 5, Diplomacy 0+3, Disguise 0, Intimidate 3, Listen 3+3, Move Silently 4, Spot 3+3

As it no longer has natural attacks well need to swap Multiattack for something else. I favour Combat Reflexes to reflect the description of it being disturbingly fast in combat:

Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack

Not sure about the Advancement by size, that seems a bit odd for a giant or humanoid. We could cut that and only have character-class advancement. However I'm inclined to keep it and just have them grow bigger. In either case, I'd like to tweak the height and weight description.

With size advancement:

Advancement: 7-8 HD (Large), 9-10 HD (Huge) or by character class

A typical cave lord is 9 to 10 feet tall and extremely fat, weighing 1,200 to 2,000 pounds – without the blubber it’d be about the mass of an ogre (600 to 700 pounds). Some goblin giants grow to heights of 12 feet or more and can weigh at least 1½ tons.

With class-only:

Advancement: By character class

A typical cave lord is 9 to 10 feet tall and extremely fat, weighing 1,200 to 2,000 pounds – without the blubber it’d be about the mass of an ogre (600 to 700 pounds). Some goblin giants grow to heights of up to 12 feet and might weigh 1½ tons or more.

Oh, and I reckon we should have the smarter ones learn Common or Undercommon:

Cave lords speak Giant and Goblin; those with Intelligence scores of 14 or higher will usually also speak Common or Undercommon.

For the "some special ability to command goblins" I propose:

Goblin Suzerain (Ex): [Version #1] A cave lord has a +8 racial bonus on Charisma-based checks against any goblinoid whose size category is smaller than its own. It also has a +4 racial bonus on the saving throw DC of spells and spell-like abilities of the Enchantment school or with the Fear descriptor it casts on such smaller goblinoids.

Upon reflection, I prefer.

Goblin Suzerain (Ex): [Version #2] A cave lord has a +8 racial bonus on Charisma-based checks against any goblinoid whose size category and Hit Dice are both less than its own. It also has a +4 racial bonus on the saving throw DC of spells and spell-like abilities of the Enchantment school or with the Fear descriptor it casts on such lesser goblinoids.

Skills: Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7 (+15 vs lesser goblins), Disguise +2 (+4 acting), Intimidate +7 (+15 vs lesser goblins), Listen +7, Move Silently +7, Spot +7

 

[Cleon]

Goblin Suzerain (Ex): [Version #2] A cave lord has a +8 racial bonus on Charisma-based checks against any goblinoid whose size category and Hit Dice are both less than its own. It also has a +4 racial bonus on the saving throw DC of spells and spell-like abilities of the Enchantment school or with the Fear descriptor it casts on such lesser goblinoids.

Skills: Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7 (+15 vs lesser goblins), Disguise +2 (+4 acting), Intimidate +7 (+15 vs lesser goblins), Listen +7, Move Silently +7, Spot +7

You know technically its Goblin suzerain power would apply to Disguise checks as written. That seems a bit, well odd. I'm imagining a giant cave lord looming over a cowering goblin, hissing "I am a beautiful young elf, aren't I!" The same issue applies to Animal Empathy I guess, but in a pinch we could rewrite it so the suzerainty only applies to certain checks. Oh and I should definitely have included Bluff, so better edit that in.

So maybe:

Goblin Suzerain (Ex) : [Version #5/#6] A cave lord has a +4/+8 racial bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate checks against any goblinoid whose size category and Hit Dice are both less than its own. It also has a +2 racial bonus on the saving throw DC when it casts spells and spell-like abilities of the Enchantment school or with the Fear descriptor on such lesser goblinoids.

I currently prefer option #3 sans disguise:

Goblin Suzerain (Ex) : [Version #7] A cave lord has a +8 racial bonus on Charisma-based checks against any goblinoid whose size category and Hit Dice are both less than its own, except for Disguise checks. It also has a +2 racial bonus on the saving throw DC when it casts spells and spell-like abilities of the Enchantment school or with the Fear descriptor on such lesser goblinoids.

Skills: Bluff +7 (+15 vs lesser goblins), Diplomacy +7 (+15 vs lesser goblins), Disguise +2 (+4 acting), Intimidate +7 (+15 vs lesser goblins), Listen +7, Move Silently +7, Spot +7

That's my favourite version so far!

 

[freyar]

I don't actually see a version 3 for Goblin Suzerain, but I do like version 7 well enough. All the changes look ok to me!

 

[Cleon]

That's weird, one of my posts appears to have vanished.

It's easy enough to reconstruct.

Something like "After mulling it over, a +4 modifier on the save DC is a bit strong so maybe half it, and I'd consider halving the Charisma-based check bonus":

Goblin Suzerain (Ex): [Version #3] A cave lord has a +8 racial bonus on Charisma-based checks against any goblinoid whose size category and Hit Dice are both less than its own. It also has a +2 racial bonus on the saving throw DC of spells and spell-like abilities of the Enchantment school or with the Fear descriptor it casts on such lesser goblinoids.

Goblin Suzerain (Ex): [Version #4] A cave lord has a +4 racial bonus on Charisma-based checks against any goblinoid whose size category and Hit Dice are both less than its own. It also has a +2 racial bonus on the saving throw DC of spells and spell-like abilities of the Enchantment school or with the Fear descriptor it casts on such lesser goblinoids.

Skills: Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7 (+11 vs lesser goblins), Disguise +2 (+4 acting), Intimidate +7 (+11 vs lesser goblins), Listen +7, Move Silently +7, Spot +7

 

[Cleon]

Putting all of the above together results in:

Giant, Goblin (Cave Lord)[revised]
Large Giant (Goblinoid)
Hit Dice: 6d8+30 (57 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares); base speed 30 ft.
Armor Class: 20 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +5 natural, +3 hide armor), touch 12, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+14
Attack: Morningstar +9 melee (2d6+9) or javelin +6 ranged (1d8+6)
Full Attack: Morningstar +9 melee (2d6+9) or javelin +6 ranged (1d8+6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Caveborn, damage reduction 10/slashing or piercing, darkvision 60 ft., goblin suzerain, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 15
Skills: Bluff +7(+15 vs smaller goblins), Diplomacy +7 (+15 vs smaller goblins), Disguise +2 (+4 acting), Intimidate +7 (+15 vs smaller goblins), Listen +7, Move Silently +7, Spot +7
Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack
Environment: Any underground
Organization: Solitary or tribe (1 cave lord plus 40–400 goblin warriors plus 100% goblin noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level goblin sergeant per 20 adults, 1 or 2 goblin lieutenants of 4th or 5th level, 10–24 worgs, and 2–4 dire wolves)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: 7-8 HD (Large), 9-10 HD (Huge) or by character class
Level Adjustment: +4

This massive goblin is nearly ten feet tall. It is obscenely obese, with prodigious rolls of fat beneath its gray-green skin.

Cave lords are goblinoid giants. Though most folk refer to them simply as "goblin giants", cave lords created their own moniker due to their dislike for the term. Cave lords often take control of a goblinoid tribe, commanding respect and loyalty through fear.

Cave lords are carnivorous, and have voracious appetites to maintain their great bulk. Although they eat any meat, cave lords prefer the taste of kobold flesh to all else. Cave lords direct their goblinoid tribes to raid kobold warrens for delicious captives. If the number of kobolds captured are not enough to sate their hunger, the cave lords devour goblins from their own tribe. These acts of cannibalism are always performed in private, in an unusual ritual involving chanting and the burning of strange herbs. Because of their similar roles and cannibalistic tendencies, a great rivalry exists between cave lords and barghests. A single tribe can never support both creatures.

In dealings with other races, cave lords are particularly dangerous. They are often receptive to offers of alliances and truces, but the deceptive creatures are quick to betrayal.

A typical cave lord is 9 to 10 feet tall and extremely fat, weighing 1,200 to 2,000 pounds – without the blubber it’d be about the mass of an ogre (600 to 700 pounds). Some goblin giants grow to heights of 12 feet or more and can weigh at least 1½ tons.

A goblin giant's bag usually contains kobold bones, subterranean herbs, flint and tinder, and bits of food.

Cave lords speak Giant and Goblin; those with Intelligence scores of 14 or higher will usually also speak Common or Undercommon.

Combat
Despite its great girth, a cave lord is surprisingly swift and agile, a fact that they use to their advantage. Cave lords are good tacticians, directing their goblin minions to great effect.

Caveborn (Su): Despite its tremendous bulk, a cave lord can supernaturally alter its dimensions to travel through its subterranean realm. It is treated as being one size smaller than it actually is for the purposes of squeezing (see page 149 of the Player’s Handbook for the rules for squeezing).

Goblin Suzerain (Ex): A cave lord has a +8 racial bonus on Charisma-based checks against any goblinoid whose size category and Hit Dice are both less than its own, except for Disguise checks. It also has a +2 racial bonus on the saving throw DC when it casts spells and spell-like abilities of the Enchantment school or with the Fear descriptor on such lesser goblinoids.

Vulnerability to Sunlight (Ex): A cave lord takes 1 point of Constitution damage for every hour it is exposed to sunlight, and it dies if its Constitution score reaches 0. Lost Constitution points are recovered at the rate of 1 per every 24-hour period spent underground or otherwise sheltered from the sun.

Skills: Cave lords have a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.

Cave Lord Characters
Most cave lords are rogues or fighters. Their favored class is rogue. Cave lord clerics worship the same deities as goblins, primarily Maglubiyet. A cave lord cleric has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Evil, or Trickery.

Cave Lords in Krynn
Evidence seems to indicate that cave lords are relatively new to Krynn. Some speculate that they were a byproduct of the Chaos War, but this theory cannot be proven with hard evidence at this time.

 

[Cleon]

One final tweak, I'm thinking of tweaking the organization to allow for (a) multiple Cave Lords and young ones plus (b) Cave Lords encountered "on the move", based on the warband organization of goblins and probably the band/gang too.

For the first, the original text does not clarified if (or how!) cave lords reproduce or whether they're interfertile with other goblinoids. They may be rare sports born from an ordinary goblin under the influence of chaotic forces. I'm inclined to give them the 35% noncombatants of a standard giant, but keep the encounter number low. Let's say 1-3 plus 35% noncom instead of the "6-9 plus 35% noncombatants" of a typical giant band? If I do that we should specify how they breed in the text!

Now a goblin warband has all the goblins mounted on worgs, which'd make it hard for a cave lord to keep up with its 20 foot move. Now a standard dire wolf is a Large Str 25 quadruped so has a carrying capacity of 1,066/2,133/3,200 pounds [light/medium/heavy] while a maximized one has Str 31 for a 1,840/3,680/5,520 lb. capacity (elite base Str 15 +14 racial +2 ability advancement for 16-18 HD), so in theory a normal dire wolf can carry the weight of a cave lord as a heavy lord while an elite dire wold could do so as a medium load.

That said, I would pity the poor canine bearing a creature many times heavier than it! Also, is there an official rule that a mount has to be a size category larger than its rider?

It seems easier to say that cave lords use chariots drawn by dire wolves instead.

I propose:

Organization: Solitary, retinue (1 plus 10-24 goblin warriors, 2-5 3rd-level sergeants, 1 goblin lieutenant of 4th or 5th level if 20+ goblins, 0-2 dire wolves [50% chance, roll 1d4-2] and 2-5 worgs), warband (1-2 on chariots with 2-4 dire wolves plus 8-18 goblin warriors, 1-5 3rd-level sergeants, 1 goblin lieutenant of 4th-6th level, all on worg mounts), or tribe (1-3 plus 35% noncombatants and 40-400 goblin warriors, 100% goblin noncombatants, 1 3rd-level goblin sergeant per 20 adults, 1 or 2 goblin lieutenants of 4th or 5th level, 10-24 worgs, and 2-4 dire wolves)

 

[Cleon]

For the procreation, I'm thinking of revising the first paragraph thus:

Cave lords are goblinoid giants. Though most folk refer to them simply as "goblin giants", cave lords created their own moniker due to their dislike for the term. Cave lords often take control of a goblinoid tribe, commanding respect and loyalty through fear. Cave lords can be born from ordinary goblins for unknown reasons, but this is incredibly rare. Cave lords are interfertile with each other and normal goblins; a goblin/cave lord mating occasionally produces another goblin giant but normally only results in more goblins, often unusually powerful ones with the elite stat array.

 

[Cleon]

Oh, once this is signed off am I replacing the current version with it or creating a new "Giant, Cave Lord (revised)" entry with a note explaining the error(s) in the former version?