D&D 5E Cost of make a Saving Throw

[Hawk Diesel]

I don't think a saving throw should cost an action or require you to be prone or anything. The negative effects of the spell or whatever you're saving from are enough of a cost. Personally, while I don't mind complexity in my games, I prefer some kind of a balance. If a Dexterity save required some sort of cost to use, then why not Strength or Intelligence? And what would those costs look like? If only applied to dex, then why is dex set apart from the rest, and how does that impact characters that strongly rely on good dexterity? How would something like this interact with abilities like Evasion? Suddenly this creates a potential cascade effect with ripples that impact the game in many more unexpected ways.

Plus, I don't submit to the school of thought that all mechanics need to be based in a plausible reality. For example, the clearly defined actions and turns within initiative. Combat is messy and chaotic. No one calmly waits for someone to swing their sword before deciding that the other person is done and going themselves. Some mechanics are not meant to simulate reality, but make the game manageable and feel like a game rather than an unstructured, freeform story.

But this is just my way of playing and interpreting the game.

 

[Krachek]

..why exactly a Dexterity saving throw to protect you from Fireball does not cost movement or a reaction or leave you prone

Because we are in a role playing fantasy game, not a simulation game.

 

[Quickleaf]

I did not want to derail @Hemlock's thread so I created a new one. In Helmock's explanations for what he would miss from 5e if he instead played AD&D he touched on something I thought was worth a discussion.

[SECTION]...(snip)...why exactly a Dexterity saving throw to protect you from Fireball does not cost movement or a reaction or leave you prone (i.e. apparently you're not doing any of the things you'd think you were doing to protect yourself from the Fireball).[/SECTION]

What would be the implications for introducing a cost in order to make a Dexterity saving throw?

Cost could be anywhere from a loss of a Reaction or suffer the Prone condition or a loss of future movement or something else entirely.

The reason not to do this is simplicity. Bonus Actions and Reactions are minimized to special situations/features that allow a PC (and occasionally a monster) to use them. Implementing blanket Reactions for saving throws would reintroduce one of the things that made 4e combats so long-lasting: reactive decision points that all players need to keep in mind regularly.

Personally I'm not a fan of the loss of movement just because it is something you have to remember upon your next turn, though you could argue the Prone condition is also something you'd have to remember, but I feel a condition is easier to keep record of.

The issue some might have with using a loss of a Reaction or Prone condition is that if you have already used your Reaction then you can only save by taking the Prone condition. What if you have already used up your Reaction and, Mystra forbid, you are hit with 2 Fireballs before your next turn - do you not save on the 2nd Fireball or do you make a save with Disadvantage?

IF a DM wanted to implement something like this, I'd simply go with a "succeeds/fails by 5+" threshold which I already use for ability/skill checks in my games (EDIT: I believe I saw this originally in Iron Heroes. In M&M3e is referred to as "Degrees of Success/Failure." Dungeon World does something similar).

So...if you fail your save by 5+, then the DM can throw an extra complication like you're blasted backward and knocked prone from the fireball. And if you succeed your save by 5+, then you can choose to move behind cover within the fireball's area-of-effect (without expending movement) or something along those lines.

That kind of attention to detail isn't for every game (and probably isn't for every check), but it would allow you to implement some of what [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] was alluding to without needlessly complicating the game / burdening players with more to think about.

The other question one could ask is why would this mechanic only be applicable to Dexterity saving throws? Wouldn't mind-affecting spells also require one's attention? i.e. therefore a Reaction cost.

Perhaps this all is making things unnecessarily complicated, perhaps 'movement to resist affects' is a free reaction within combat with no limitation to how many times one can react to resist.

The one area of design I think this could be interesting to explore is with the Rogue class (maybe the Monk too), a character concept that IMHO feels like it should have more mobility. *IF* there were some kind of limit re. saves and reactions, the Rogue is where I'd expect that limit to be broken. Like a reaction movement that allows you to (possible) dive out of an area of effect. Maybe a replacement or upgrade for Evasion. Heck, you could introduce that to the Rogue without tweaking any other rules and it would fit well.

 

[Tony Vargas]

What would be the implications for introducing a cost in order to make a Dexterity saving throw?

It would make anything that granted a DEX save (ex: Fireball) that much more powerful.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The major mechanical effect of requiring a Reaction in order to attempt a saving throw is that you would only be able to attempt one per round, making it much more effective of a strategy to cast multiple spells in the same round. It would also make Counterspell, Mage Shield, and opportunity attacks much more costly.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

That kind of attention to detail isn't for every game (and probably isn't for every check), but it would allow you to implement some of what [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] was alluding to without needlessly complicating the game / burdening players with more to think about.

Just to be clear: I wasn't suggesting adding this to 5E. I was using it as an example of the fact that 5E's saving throw system has warts, as does AD&D's--they are just warts in different places. I can live with either set of warts.

 

[jaelis]

If you really felt that something like this was appropriate for a 5e effect, you could just add it as an effect on a successful save.

 

[discosoc]

A real easy solution would be to make DEX Saves use a reaction, and perhaps give classes that have the "evasion" style features get a free DEX Save each round. Considering just how over-represented the DEX stat is in the first place, I really don't think this would cause any balance issues.

 

[Blue]

HERO system has a number of actions you can "abort" to (sacrifice your next action) that will protect you, such as the "dive for cover" to get out of an AoE. In 5e, we have the reaction mechanic.

These weren't a cost for your basic defenses, rather a cost for additional defenses.

We already have this available to some, such as the Defensive Duelist feat, Cutting Words lore bard feature, or the Shield spell.

I wouldn't be adverse to a system that had active defenses like these being more common, but I think the current bounded accuracy math of 5e is not the place to layer them on top.

 

[Sadras]

Thanks all, I just brought it up to discuss the merit of the idea.

Hmmm... if I were to do something like this, I'd borrow from Fate (kinda). You make saving throws as usual, but if you fail, you can opt to take take a complication/penalty effect. So...

I have been thinking more and more along introducing these kind of options within our 5e game. Specifically for when damage from an attack would normally drop you to 0, you can opt to instead roll on the Lingering Wounds & lose x Hit Dice or something.
We already have something similar for Inspiration - where you use a personality characteristic (flaw, ideal, bond..etc) to gain a complication on a roll (essentially disadvantage) to refresh your Inspiration.

I think that if you're going to go this way, you may as well kick out Dexterity saves altogether, and replace them with something you can use more consistently. For instance, to resist a fireball you could choose to either make an Athletics check to move up to half your speed or an Acrobatics check to duck into cover, with either choice using your reaction.

That make sense.

The cost/implication of this idea would be needless complexity.

I agree.

If a Dexterity save required some sort of cost to use, then why not Strength or Intelligence?

I actually did mention that in my post - although I never went into detail what those costs may be.

Some mechanics are not meant to simulate reality, but make the game manageable and feel like a game rather than an unstructured, freeform story.

But this is just my way of playing and interpreting the game.

Agree.

The major mechanical effect of requiring a Reaction in order to attempt a saving throw is that you would only be able to attempt one per round, making it much more effective of a strategy to cast multiple spells in the same round. It would also make Counterspell, Mage Shield, and opportunity attacks much more costly.

Very true, one would start giving much more thought when using their Reactions.

If you really felt that something like this was appropriate for a 5e effect, you could just add it as an effect on a successful save.

That is quite a neat idea.

Just to be clear: I wasn't suggesting adding this to 5E. I was using it as an example of the fact that 5E's saving throw system has warts, as does AD&D's--they are just warts in different places. I can live with either set of warts.

Yeah sorry, wasn't clear enough about that in my OP.