D&D 5E Cost of make a Saving Throw

[Arnwolf666]

When you don't use miniatures and just have generic area's people move between this is not a problem. It's nice not using miniatures sometimes.

 

[Gadget]

It is true that from a simulationist perspective, Saving Throws (especially dex based ones) should cost something. But, as others have pointed out, this adds complexity and affects game balance, and this is hardly the only place in the rules where simulationism is sacrificed for expediency and playability (Hit Points, initiative, and AC all come to mind).

That being said, It would be intriguing to see a system that had an action cost associated with Saving Throws. Maybe the character could make a choice: Save at the cost of (a reaction, bonus action, prone), or grit and take the effect with no action cost.

 

[Quickleaf]

Just to be clear: I wasn't suggesting adding this to 5E. I was using it as an example of the fact that 5E's saving throw system has warts, as does AD&D's--they are just warts in different places. I can live with either set of warts.

Ah. Seems like the same criticism of saves could be leveled to AD&D and 5e? Saving throws are passive in both editions. Fireballs don't move you around in both editions. But seems like we did a lot of that in AD&D, at least with my group. And maybe moreso than AD&D, 5e has the rules concepts (i.e. reactions & forced movement) which would allow for something like that to be easily house ruled.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Ah. Seems like the same criticism of saves could be leveled to AD&D and 5e? Saving throws are passive in both editions. Fireballs don't move you around in both editions. But seems like we did a lot of that in AD&D, at least with my group. And maybe moreso than AD&D, 5e has the rules concepts (i.e. reactions & forced movement) which would allow for something like that to be easily house ruled.

Not quite, on two levels:

(1) AD&D doesn't have a reaction economy or impose penalties for being prone (AFAIR), and tends to be much looser as well on exact positioning (Theatre of the Mind is more popular, as witness the combat examples in the 2nd edition PHB), so it's much harder to rule out the possibility that a Dex save might involve dropping prone or dodging behind something. In 5E you know that the Thief didn't drop prone to avoid the Fireball because he's not prone, and he still has his full movement so he didn't just stand up from being prone.

(2) According to Gygaxian prose as I understand it, there is no unified mechanic for saving throw success in AD&D. A wizard who successfully saves vs. a Fireball may have partially counterspelled it; a fighter may have toughed it out; a holy man may have been protected by his god or God. Wizards get better at counterspelling as they increase in level; holy men get holier; fighters get tougher; etc. But the idea that there is precisely one way to avoid a Fireball isn't a part of AD&D in the first place, unlike 5E, which commits to "Dexterity" as a universal component of saves vs. Fireball and is therefore halfway to specifying a universal method of avoiding Fireballs.

Similar things could be said about other saves in 5E, e.g. why does Dexterity help against heat (red dragon breath) but not against cold (white dragon breath).

But then, similar things could be said about AD&D saves, e.g. why is dragon breath so different from a spell that is has an entirely different saving throw profile?

I know of no saving-throw system without displeasing warts.

 

[mellored]

How making a save by paying hit points?

For instance, you can avoid a fireball if you pay 8d6 health.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I know of no saving-throw system without displeasing warts.

The only wart-free saving-throw system would be no saving throw system, at all. ;P

 

[jayoungr]

A combat round is six seconds. A fireball lasts for a fraction of one second. Doesn't seem (to me) like it takes enough time out of the round to justify eating up the PC's reaction.

 

[Edwin Suijkerbuijk]

Well, for starters, you would have to figure out why avoiding a fireball with a DEX based save has a cost while avoiding a sword with DEX based ac doesn't.

Maybe just making a save would not have a cost,but for a cost you could get a bonus to your saving throw .

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

A combat round is six seconds. A fireball lasts for a fraction of one second. Doesn't seem (to me) like it takes enough time out of the round to justify eating up the PC's reaction.

You could say the exact same thing about anything else that costs a reaction, e.g. hitting someone who turns their back on you to turn away.

 

[jayoungr]

You could say the exact same thing about anything else that costs a reaction, e.g. hitting someone who turns their back on you to turn away.

Sure, and hitting someone who turns their back doesn't rob you of the ability to make a saving throw. In other words, I don't have a problem with a PC doing two of those split-second things in a single round.