D&D (2024) Could the DnDNext Sorcerer be revived as its own class?

[Minigiant]

We know that WotC's own feedback showed that players did not like the valour bard because it changed in nature when it gained in subclass, so it's fairly obvious why the feedback on this was negative.

However, the problem could be avoided if the class dropped the idea that it was a sorcerer. You could ditch all the caster stuff, start off as a martial, and still keep most of the mechanics.

Changing the class from the sorceror class to either a monster person class or a dragon class would free up this class from past issues.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Maybe the idea with othe name.

For example the "dracolyte", a martial+arcane with subclasses for each dragons.

The totemist shaman from 3.5 "Magic of Incarnum". An update of "incarnate" where each subclass was linked to some iconic monster or totem.

The "Demonbinder" prestige class from "Drows of the Underdark".

A point we should study is an update of the "martial maneuvers", special attacks from "3.5 Tome of Batle: Book of the nine Swords" what after being "spent" the martial adept could reload with a relatively brief action. This mean playtesting and feedback. It has to be simple or easy to be understood by new players.

 

[Greg K]

We know that WotC's own feedback showed that players did not like the valour bard because it changed in nature when it gained in subclass, so it's fairly obvious why the feedback on this was negative.

Yep and Mike Mearls had stated in an episode of his old Happy Fun Hour series that the Bard should have received its subclass at first level to address this issue, but the class design philosophy had not been finished prior to the development of several of the classes,

 

[Remathilis]

We know that WotC's own feedback showed that players did not like the valour bard because it changed in nature when it gained in subclass, so it's fairly obvious why the feedback on this was negative.

However, the problem could be avoided if the class dropped the idea that it was a sorcerer. You could ditch all the caster stuff, start off as a martial, and still keep most of the mechanics.

That's an interesting take. I think it would work best as either a martial or a half-caster gish (like a paladin) who picks up monster abilities. Subclasses for different types of monster could influence the amount you lean into each part (draconic for magical, giantish for tanky, celestial for healing, genie for elemental, etc).

Although typing that out, it seems a lot of subclasses are already built into the "play a monster" mechanics. I mean, you can have a draconic sorcerer, giant barbarian, undeath warlock, fey bard, etc.

 

[Dausuul]

I think the basic idea has potential, but as @Remathilis points out, there are a lot of pitfalls here. The class is thematically built around an "ultimate form," but most of its actual power is in the spells you have to cast to reach that form. The ultimate form itself is more a consolation prize for running out of arcane firepower, and that isn't going to make it particularly fun to play.

If I were designing a take on this class, I'd make it a half caster and give it a set of "ultimate form abilities," something like:

Dragon Scales. At level 1, when you cast a spell of 1st level or higher, you can use a bonus action to gain dragon scales for 1 minute. If you are not wearing armor, your base AC becomes 14 + your Dexterity modifier. You also gain resistance to your draconic damage type.

Dragon Fangs. At level 5, when you cast a spell of 2nd level or higher, you can use a bonus action to grow fangs for 1 minute. Your Unarmed Strikes now deal 2d8 piercing damage and use your Charisma modifier in place of Strength. [The class also grants Extra Attack at this level.]

Dragon Wings. At level 9, when you cast a spell of 3rd level or higher and use Dragon Scales, you sprout wings for 1 minute. You gain a fly speed of 60 feet.

Dragon Breath. At level 13, when you cast a spell of 4th level or higher and use Dragon Fangs, you gain a breath weapon for 1 minute. Once on each of your turns, you can use your breath weapon in place of an attack, dealing 4d8 damage of your draconic type in a 30-foot cone. Each creature in the area can make a Dexterity saving throw against your spell save DC for half damage.

Dragon Ascendance. At level 17, when you cast a spell of 5th level or higher and use either Dragon Scales or Dragon Fangs, if the other ability is already active, you take dragon form for 1 minute. You become Large-sized and gain 50 temporary hit points, and your breath weapon becomes a 60-foot cone. Your equipment melds into your new form, but any magic items you have attuned continue to function normally.

This would obviously need a bunch of polishing, testing, balancing, and tweaking, but the basic idea is to spend your first two rounds casting spells to power up. Then you're a melee monster -- literally -- for the rest of the fight.

But that's not a good replacement for the sorcerer, which has "full caster" as a significant part of its identity. It would need to be its own thing. A full-caster version might give the ultimate form less baseline power, but provide ways to burn spell slots in ultimate form for extra punch -- e.g., each use of your breath weapon costs a spell slot and does damage based on the slot level.

 

[MoonSong]

Yep and Mike Mearls had stated in an episode of his old Happy Fun Hour series that the Bard should have received its subclass at first level to address this issue, but the class design philosophy had not been finished prior to the development of several of the classes,

Sadly they completely threw it away for 2024.

 

[Charlaquin]

When that sorcerer came out, I was not a big fan of it's design AS THE SORCERER. I felt it was too narrow. You have to start out a caster and become a melee monster as you expend resources. That means every sorcerer starts a mage and ends a fighter. If you wanted to turn into a dragon* earlier, you had to burn though your spell slots fast rather than being able to balance the two modes or switch between them. It also meant whatever monster form you had was going to be a melee brute. That limited your options for monsters you could potentially use.

The biggest issue for me was that lightswitch design where you were either a fighter or a caster but never at the same time. Which is why I was happy they didn't make that the sorcerer.

It wouldn’t have only had to turn into a melee character, nor would it only have had to gain monstrous traits. The fundamental mechanic of using the willpower/sorcery point pool as a logic gate to turn abilities on or off at certain threshold values is incredibly versatile. For example, maybe with the Chaos sorcerer, wild surges become more likely as your Willpower pool gets lower.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I have long thought that there should be a martial counterpart to the sorcerer. D&D has struggled with coming up with new ways to hit people with sharp or blunt objects, so becoming something like a dragon, elemental, fiend, celestial, giant, etc. seems like a good way to do that. Also, this gives someone playing a dragonborn the chance to be the most dragon-y dragonborn of all (ditto tieflings and fiends, genasi and elementals, and even elves with fey).

In hindsight, sticking that on the sorcerer wasn't the best plan. I am sure they did it because "bloodlines", but there wasn't going to be satisfaction unless it did martial damage and having a full caster do martial damage tends to be bad for the game. I am not sure what kind of resource management should be involved, though. I would like "you can use this as much as you want, but if you exceed X times a long rest [X determined by level], you need to make a hard wisdom save or go off rampaging through the countryside (or worse, giving away all your gold to widows and orphans if your ancestor was a celestial) until you complete a long rest", but I can see that wouldn't go well with a lot of groups.

 

[Zardnaar]

Maybe the idea with othe name.

For example the "dracolyte", a martial+arcane with subclasses for each dragons.

The totemist shaman from 3.5 "Magic of Incarnum". An update of "incarnate" where each subclass was linked to some iconic monster or totem.

The "Demonbinder" prestige class from "Drows of the Underdark".

A point we should study is an update of the "martial maneuvers", special attacks from "3.5 Tome of Batle: Book of the nine Swords" what after being "spent" the martial adept could reload with a relatively brief action. This mean playtesting and feedback. It has to be simple or easy to be understood by new players.

As mentioned earlier I've thought of it'd mechanics in a dragon disciplie martial type vs sorcerer.

D12 HD, tank/defender pers to contrast with Paladin striker.

 

[Greg K]

Sadly they completely threw it away for 2024.

Sadly, the 2014 team did not go back and address it during the PHB creation after the design philosophy was nailed down. And the design team discarded the philosophy during the 2014 Edition after Mearls left as head of the D&D team.