Could we please have a non evil/ammoral pact for Warlocks? :)

[FireLance]

Well, the fluff involved with Warlocks implies that it's basically a short-cut for power, and just get the power period. Not a lot of "training" involved.

Finally, if one can just go directly to the god and say "Hey, gimmie powarz", then what's the point of being a paladin or a cleric when you can be a warlock and get your powarz right now? Where's the drawback?

Well, different powers, for one, but I think it's simpler to just change the fluff. Certainly, making a pact with Evil as a quick and dirty source of power is a well-established trope, so we can keep that unchanged. Making a pact with Good on the other hand - I don't see why it can't require as much discipline, sacrifice, devotion and training as becoming a cleric or a paladin.

 

[Imaro]

I see no reason a warlock couldn't have a "good" power source, for example...

A reformed killer or murderer who is given a second chance after being imprisoned by the church of blah-blah. He isn't an actual follower of the "good" power such as a cleric or paladin but, as a sinner, he can be used as an expendable servant who serves the deity's interests and is empowered by the good power to do just that. He is given the bloody-handed missions and questionable actions that must be performed by the power in order to promote the greater good, but that would tarnish a paladin or cleric. He may have the chance for a semi-redemption if he can find "good" ways to complete his missions for the greater good (and may even come to realize that his former ways must be attoned for), on the other hand he could complete his missions (still serving the greater good) but with no moral compass for how far he goes or what are necessary actions (thus falling further and further to evil). And if he fails or just goes too far, well then the deity will strip his powers and send it's paladins and clerics to pass final judgement on him.

Some would ask why a "good" power would do this...well alot of good powers could be about chances for redemption, tests of morality, and free will. They are also often about righteous wrath and not a fair bit of destruction when necessary.

 

[Rechan]

Making a pact with Good on the other hand - I don't see why it can't require as much discipline, sacrifice, devotion and training as becoming a cleric or a paladin.

Sure. So, how are you going to reflect that Good warlocks come with sacrifices and problems? The Warlock class seems to be "This is dangerous". I think Good needs to have at least some sort of danger, or a "Price". Even Good pact-givers should have a "Well, sucks for you, but you accepted my power, so deal with it." Without some drawback, then it's just not a Warlock to me. Then you're just a ranged cleric.

 

[Lackhand]

Finally, if one can just go directly to the god and say "Hey, gimmie powarz", then what's the point of being a paladin or a cleric when you can be a warlock and get your powarz right now? Where's the drawback?

This is a neat idea I can answer with, but I don't know how I'd feel seeing it eat pagecount in PHB 1. Be great expanded as a DDI article, or in a supplement, tho'.

The idea: It's a Wonderful Life mashup with Spawn. You get a Harrowed One (Good Warlock) when someone who has lead a life of good deeds for the wrong reasons, with a smothered spark of good, comes to an untimely end (especially at the hands of supernatural evil).

For purposes of how I'd see this character's backstory play out, imagine that Jimmy Stewart tried to commit suicide not because he was depressed and worth more dead, but because Mr. Potter was actually a Duke of Hell who bound him, some money for his life.

Clarence the Angel (tarted up: Clarion of Heaven) appears before him disguised as a mortal, and struggles with him; Stewart throws him from the bridge to the waters below -- and then realized the path that he's on, and turns aside. He jumps in to save Clarion, and then all artifice falls from his eyes, as Clarion stands seven feet tall and burns with holy fire.

It was then, sodden and chill, that Stewart became invested with the power of the hosts, and bound his soul to Clarion, that his land might be cleared of the dark power known to men as Potter, and to Angels as Molech.


See?

 

[Rechan]

This is a neat idea I can answer with, but I don't know how I'd feel seeing it eat pagecount in PHB 1. Be great expanded as a DDI article, or in a supplement, tho'.

The idea: It's a Wonderful Life mashup with Spawn. You get a Harrowed One (Good Warlock) when someone who has lead a life of good deeds for the wrong reasons, with a smothered spark of good, comes to an untimely end (especially at the hands of supernatural evil).

Snip

See?

Okay, that's inventive. However, at least in my experience, most people have good intentions that get them in a heap of trouble.

So how do you differentiate Average Joe Merchant who means well but screws everything up, and Sarzak the Warlock who deserves the Power of the Celestia?

 

[Lackhand]

Okay, that's inventive. However, at least in my experience, most people have good intentions that get them in a heap of trouble.

So how do you differentiate Average Joe Merchant who means well but screws everything up, and Sarzak the Warlock who deserves the Power of the Celestia?

Whether or not an angel appears before him in his hour of need to invest them with the power of a god (read: is a PC or NPC).

Nobody ever said the godbothering business was fair, and some people have epic destinies... and others don't.

 

[Imaro]

You know, the whole drawbacks thing is somehing I'm really interested in seeing the supposed implementation of (because, honestly, there may be no real drawbacks). I mean if they're too great compared to the other classes (which IMHO don't have drawbacks like a warlock would) why play one from a mechanical standpoint? On the other hand I also wonder why would any powerful creature make a pact with a mortal, to give him/her power if it doesn't have a blatant upperhand in the deal. In the end it will be interesting to see how WotC deals with this issue, of course I think handwaving it would be a really weak cop out.

 

[FireLance]

Sure. So, how are you going to reflect that Good warlocks come with sacrifices and problems? The Warlock class seems to be "This is dangerous". I think Good needs to have at least some sort of danger, or a "Price". Even Good pact-givers should have a "Well, sucks for you, but you accepted my power, so deal with it." Without some drawback, then it's just not a Warlock to me. Then you're just a ranged cleric.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, the need to be Good is price enough for me.

As for danger, I don't think there needs to be any mechanical danger from the use of warlock powers (at least, no greater than the mechanical danger from the use of wizardly, clerical, or other powers). Fluff danger - bloodthirsty mobs, unhappy patrons, etc. - can be easily transposed: dangerous quests, the need to take a moral stand, etc.

 

[Rechan]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, the need to be Good is price enough for me.

In a game where (at least some) get away with killing orc babies in the name of Good can get away with it, being "Good" ain't all that bad.

I doubt we'll see a Mechanical drawback or limitation from the pact. It'll probably be fluff-wise.

 

[Digital M@]

My biggest beef with the evil pacts for Warlock is WILL bring forth the old arguments of D&D being evil and now give that tired argument a certain level of validity. I know many people who still question D&D and morality, their concerns are based off of misconceptions, but they are still there. Now that their child wants to play a game where a core class is based around pacts with demons and has a demon born race, will seal the deal that D&D will not allowed to play.

Tieflings are no big deal, but that combined with Warlock has definitely shaded the game a bit. This is especially true with the lack of corresponding good aligned options. The designer’s put it in writing that they think good is "boring".