Could we please have a non evil/ammoral pact for Warlocks? :)

[Rechan]

My biggest beef with the evil pacts for Warlock is WILL bring forth the old arguments of D&D being evil and now give that tired argument a certain level of validity. I know many people who still question D&D and morality, their concerns are based off of misconceptions, but they are still there. Now that their child wants to play a game where a core class is based around pacts with demons and has a demon born race, will seal the deal that D&D will not allowed to play.

1) This always starts the argument that goes down the road towards Religion, and it's board policy to not talk about that, so yeah.

2) I've said it once, I'll say it again, and this is all I'll say on the subject in this thread: it ain't the 80s anymore. Nudity on Cable, The Internet, Violent Video Games, Sex, Terrorists, Drugs - D&D is on the bottom of the barrel of things Parents will be up in arms about. Harry Potter, a book about witchcraft, was labeled as Satanic by the same crowd, and it didn't put a dent in its popularity here.

 

[Bladesong]

"4E - Could we please have a non evil/amoral pact for Warlocks? "

Even if they do not, you can and they do not even have to be "pacts".
This was an easy one for me, the warlock class is more like what the sorcerer should have been. I know there are those out there that just love the sorcerer, more power to them, but the wizard is easily adjusted to fill that niche.
The warlock became the sorcerer in my game; called them sorcerers, got rid of the pacts, added/removed/altered powers which were based somewhat on bloodlines. Besides, I always thought the Hexblade was better suited to the whole "pact" thing.

 

[Dormammu]

Doesn't Wizards' own description of the class kind of preclude this idea? They specifically state Warlocks are those that use dangerous power sources, don't they? Good power sources wouldn't be dangerous. The closest I can come up with is someone who channels pure energy from the Positive Material Plane at the risk of being burned by the sheer throughput of energy. But this doesn't work because A) it's not a pact and B) there is no Positive Material Plane in 4E.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

What would be the difference between a good/evil warlock and a good/evil cleric or Paladin.

If you can answer this question, I may be help you with yours.

We don't know enough of the game mechanic to tell if an Warlock of Good would make sense or not.

One tidbit we DO know about the warlock is that he has a kind of "soul bounty" (I forget the official term) that gives him bonuses for killing enemies. The warlock is also a striker, which means whoever he's making a pact with wants him to wield their power to kill a lot of people. This might work with SOME "good" power sources, but it's hardly fluffy bunny territory. That's why I suggested chaotic-good extraplanars as a pact (and was promptly ignored so that people could get offended by my common slang usage of the word "emo").

I really think the core of the Warlock class is the tension involved in the pact. Unlike a cleric who puts his faith in his god, or a paladin who dedicates himself to his path (be it good or evil), a warlock only "trusts" his powers because he has an ironclad pact guaranteeing their terms. Ironic given the etymology of "warlock," I know, but there you have it.

The warlock's aims are almost always going to differ from those of his "patron" to some degree, which means that most pact sources are going to be Powers who think they can outsmart or corrupt the warlock (devil-pact), those who have little left to lose (vestige), those whose motivations are almost entirely inscrutable to us mortals (Cthulhu-star-pact), and a combination of the above (fey-pact). A "good" pact could work with a Power who's dedicated to battle and chaotic enough not to care, or maybe with a sort of good power with very limited options. For example, maybe there could be a warlock pact with the mostly-dead god overthrown by Asmodeus; I don't care if that guy was patron god of fuzzy puppies, he's probably pissed enough to do anything he can to take down devils.

 

[Aristotle]

it ain't the 80s anymore... D&D is on the bottom of the barrel of things Parents will be up in arms about.

Yesterday morning, on a popular morning radio show here in DC, someone was talking about violence and youth and violent video games and Dungeons & Dragons was mentioned by name.

The negative image of our hobby still exists.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

Doesn't Wizards' own description of the class kind of preclude this idea? They specifically state Warlocks are those that use dangerous power sources, don't they? Good power sources wouldn't be dangerous. The closest I can come up with is someone who channels pure energy from the Positive Material Plane at the risk of being burned by the sheer throughput of energy. But this doesn't work because A) it's not a pact and B) there is no Positive Material Plane in 4E.

Who ever said GOOD isn't dangerous?! Never seen Raiders of the Lost Ark?
Check theology and mythology, Good beings were often extremely dangerous, and not adversed to wiping out folk they felt had sinned grievously or were dangerous, or gave strange gifts that were lethal, etc.

I think what folk are forgetting with suggestions of warlock power only being "chaotic good" type, is that many lawful good types would launch crusades of extermination, or retributive assassination, or the like. Lawful Good does not = automatic fluffy bunny!

(*)It's perfectly lawful and good to exterminate orcs, including baby ones, IF they are inherently evil. They are not children, they are young murderers and enemies who'll destroy your homeland.

(*)It's perfectly lawful and good for a tyrannt who rapes and murders his subjects and cannot be stopped, to be slaughtered in his bed.

(*)if these things are in accord with the laws and morals of the diety

What folk need to remember, is that for D&D, we're not talking Chrisitan style Lawful Good...it's D&D! How gods and powers act is entirely up to the DM and campaign guidelines.

A Warlock of Tyr could make sense....a warlock of Osisris could make sense.
People do not necesarily have to have power because they are *priests* of a god. A god could give them strange pwoers to be their executioner, their captain of armies or whatever, as a warlock, or fighter, or wizard etc.

Also, POWERS...there could be many a strange and fell power in your campaign, but "fell" does not have to mean "evil"
-A haunted city of holy men, butchered and their ruined home defiled by gnolls, who knows what gifts they might bestow a person they see as virtous and willing to perform their revenge?

Warlocks should be dangerous, but that doesn't mean *have to be primarily evil*, hm?

 

[Lord Zack]

My idea of a good pact for a Warlock would be like Samson from the Bible. Samson was given great strength by God, but he had to do certain things to keep that power. Samson seems to be a good example of what a Good Pact Warlock, because he didn't always use his power for what God would want him to. He'd be more unaligned than good himself.

 

[resistor]

My idea of a good pact for a Warlock would be like Samson from the Bible. Samson was given great strength by God, but he had to do certain things to keep that power. Samson seems to be a good example of what a Good Pact Warlock, because he didn't always use his power for what God would want him to. He'd be more unaligned than good himself.

Wow. That's actually a perfect analogy for it. I'm amazed that nobody (including myself) saw it before.

 

[Walking Dad]

My idea of a good pact for a Warlock would be like Samson from the Bible. Samson was given great strength by God, but he had to do certain things to keep that power. Samson seems to be a good example of what a Good Pact Warlock, because he didn't always use his power for what God would want him to. He'd be more unaligned than good himself.

The pacts will than include Taboos, like the ones in the WuJen class (Comp Arcane)?
(Like not cutting your hair )

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Who ever said GOOD isn't dangerous?! Never seen Raiders of the Lost Ark?

Pffft, whoever said the god in Raiders of the Lost Ark was good? Killing Nazis doesn't make you a good guy, unless our view of say, The Keep is to be very warped. All we know is that god is touchy and has an artifact no-one should mess with (note - it only didn't kill Indy and the girl because the followed the rules, not because it loved them).

I personally think the idea of "good pact" Warlocks is an idiotic non-starter, as strongly evidenced by the wild and crazy lengths people are having to go to attempt to justify the idea. Biblical strongmen with no real mystical powers are the equivalents of beam-shooting Warlocks now? What a bunch of nonsense.

People seem to be confusing Warlocks, who are Arcane Strikers, with some kind of "Adept" from Shadowrun or something, in their attempts to get a lazy "Path of What I Was Going To Do Anyway" option. The whole point of the Warlock is that you might have to do things you don't want to do/approve of, or at least be involved with such, not that you can twist the class concept to be yet another dull-as-ditchwater religious zealot.

I mean, is there even any evidence that 4E Warlocks can have pacts with EVIL gods as a power source, let alone Good ones? I seems to me that Warlocks make pacts with non-divine or quasi-divine beings for non-divine power (Arcane, after all).