Coup de Grace and Power Attack

[FrankTrollman]

Darklone, what are you talking about?

It doesn't really matter how big the handle is - many of these weapons (such as spiked chains and thrown rocks) don't have handles at all.

A light weapon for a medium creature is tiny. A weapon of one size smaller than tiny is one weapon category smaller than light for a medium creature. And if it is smaller than light they can't use it.


The 3.5 weapon size rules do not allow you to fight with kitchen knives at all. You may house rule that you can - I know I do - but that's not what the rules say.

-Frank

 

[Darklone]

That's not right FrankT. Forget the handle, that was flavourtext.

A light weapon may have different sizes, it's not explicitely worded.

By the rules written on that page you can have diminuitive medium weapons. Your kitchen knives for example. The passage you quoted means only that a human can't use a weapon that would be light for a small creature, nor can he use a weapon that would be two-handed for a large creature.

 

[FrankTrollman]

A light weapon may have different sizes, it's not explicitely worded.

You are right. That is not explicitly worded. What is explicitly worded is:

In general, a light weapon (such as a dagger) is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon (such as a longsword) is an an object one size category smaller than the wielder...

There is no slop there. A short sword is a tiny object. A dagger is also a tiny object. A diminutive object is smaller than that and is altered on category past light and cannot be used.

That's explicit - your "flavortext" notwithstanding.

-Frank

 

[Darklone]

Hey, you quoted "In general,..."

I'd say, adventuring graverobbers or holy crusaders don't use kitchen knives in general, eh ?

 

[Hypersmurf]

By the rules written on that page you can have diminuitive medium weapons. Your kitchen knives for example. The passage you quoted means only that a human can't use a weapon that would be light for a small creature, nor can he use a weapon that would be two-handed for a large creature.

I'm going to ignore weapons-designed-as-weapons for a moment, because I think there's some ambiguity there. I'm going to take a look at improvised weapons.

The halfling (Small) picks up a fork (Diminutive) to stab a goblin.

Improvised weapon; the DM has to assign stats to it.

Two sizes smaller than the halfling; that makes it a light weapon for a small character. Piercing damage, 1d2, non-proficiency penalty.

The halfling then hands his fork to a dwarf.

It was a light weapon for a Small creature, which means that it's too small for a Medium creature to use, right?

Now, it all falls down when you start talking about ranged weapons, because the Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed designations only apply to melee weapons. A sling, for example, is neither Light, nor One-Handed, nor Two-Handed. There is no written rule to prevent a halfling using a sling designed for a Colossal creature (at a -10 penalty for 5 size categories of difference).

Neither is there a rule to prevent a human throwing a baseball, since it is not considered Light, One-Handed, or Two-Handed, and thus cannot be considered "smaller than Light".

(Custserv made up a rule that you can use any ranged weapon within two size categories at the standard -2 per penalty - so a human could use a Huge Heavy Crossbow or a Tiny Hand Crossbow. But it's not backed up by anything.)

You could run into trouble if you try and use two crossbows of inappropriate size, because in that case, they receive 'equivalent' designations of "light" or "one-handed", but using only one should never be a problem.

-Hyp.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Yes. There are weapons like the sunblade which have specific size rules. That does not mean that ogres can use Tiny objects as weapons any more than it means that humans can fight with large objects.

-Frank

 

[Darklone]

Once again, obviously this stupid German over here has to be more clear in his stumbling wordings:
- There's nothing that says all light weapons have to be an object two size categories smaller than the wielder. The words "In general" even imply that there are rather often exceptions.
- The rule that you can't use a weapon two size categories different from your own is put together by a weird mix between the weapon size category description applied as general statement to weapon sizes.

Therefore, there's nothing in the rules that says a diminuitive object could not be under all circumstances a light weapon for a medium sized creature.

 

[FrankTrollman]

While the rules don't specifically prohibit a diminutive object from being a light weapon for a medium cretaure - they do specificy that all diminutive objects are light weapons for small creatures - and that means that medium creatures can't use them.

While the rules do not say that there can't be any of them, the rules do say that there aren't any of them.

There is a difference - but not enough of one to allow you to stab people with kitchen knives.

-Frank

 

[spunky_mutters]

The use of the phrase "intended wielder" all through the weapon size rules is indicative of their applicability to weapons designed to hurt, rather than improvised weapons. Ignoring this wording to apply these rules to improvised weapons is a house rule, as there is no intended wielder for any improvised weapon. The "In general..." sentence may tell us what size our improvised weapon should be treated as, but it does not prohibit any given size of creature from wielding that improvised weapon. The part with the prohibition is here:

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

I have emphasized the section where we are instructed to use the size of creature for which the weapon is designed to assign a suitable penalty to the wielder of the weapon. Since there is no such creature for which an improvised weapon is designed, there are no rules to govern size penalties or size-based usage restrictions for improvised weapons. Any decision made has to be a guess.

So are you restricted from attacking with kitchen knives? No, but since the rules for size-based penalties do not apply to improvised weapons, the exact penalty is unclear.

 

[Cyraneth]

Has anyone considered combining the heartache spell from BoVD with a Death Blow-using rogue? That makes readied coup de graces really fun. Or, it makes the 1st-level spell a killer.

"I ready a coup de grace for when this ogre is helpless. Hit 'em, cleric!"

- Cyraneth