Coup de grace

[Aaron]

If I read it correctly, you can make a Coup de grace only on unconscious targets (no more paralized, helpless, and so on), it does not concede a save roll to the victim, but you still have to hit it, and the only benefit you have is that you have advantage (the creature also falls prone, but the prone condition gives your attacks advantage, which doesn't stack with the same benefit hiven by the unconscious condition).

IMHO at the moment the unconscious condition is too..."light". I mean, a sleeping (?) or a otherwise comatose creature should be easier to hit than an active opponent who has been tripped, or otherwise made prone.

The same can be said for the paralized condition, not to mention that now you can't execute a coup de grace on a paralized foe.

I mean: a completely tied opponent (Dexter style) can be far from unconscious, and so you can't execute a Coup de grace againt it. Heck, you even have to hit it, and it could have a high AC, since it doesn't lose its Dex to armor bonus.

Opinions?

 

[1of3]

It says "helpless" targets.

 

[GSHamster]

I think those rules are poorly written. I read it as you take one action to knock a helpless person unconscious and dying (0 hp), then you can take another action (on a future round) to kill the now unconscious person.

I.e. it takes 2 rounds to kill a helpless person, or just 1 round if you're willing to leave them alive, but dying. That seems a reasonable compromise to me. Still threatening, but you aren't usually one-shotting people.

But I could be wrong, the wording is very ambiguous.

 

[Aaron]

It says "helpless" targets.

Well, actually we have no "helpless" condition at the moment. So it's only a descriptive term, not a mechanical definition. It doesn't give any rules for the matter at hand.

We have, instead, the unconscious condition.

In fact I could ask you: is a paralized foe helpless?

A sleeping or completely tied one?

Can we execute coup de grace against them?

I read it as you take one action to knock a helpless person unconscious and dying (0 hp), then you can take another action (on a future round) to kill the now unconscious person.

How can you take only one action to knock a helpless person unconscious and dying?

Which rules are you referring to?

The only occurence of the word "helpless" in the "How to play" pdf is in the Coup de grace paragraph, and it doesn't state anything on the condition.

 

[MortalPlague]

I think they're using 'helpless' in the descriptive sense, rather than as a condition. So in your example, the tied-up person or the paralyzed person would indeed be helpless.

I admire the Coup de Grace rule here. I feel like somebody took a look at Coup de Grace and said "What are people trying to accomplish with CdG?". Then they got rid of all the fiddly rules like automatic critical hit, roll a save versus the damage or die. They just made it actually kill someone. It's simple, and appropriately deadly for the kind of act it's supposed to be.

 

[frankthedm]

They just made it actually kill someone.

No they didn't. The first CDG reduces HP to 0, the second CDG kills.

I think they're using 'helpless' in the descriptive sense

Sure, to describe the unconscious target of the CDG.

IMNSHO a paralyzed victim should be affected by CDG even if the text doesn't back that up. That said, IMHO it is a bad idea for the ruleset to have paralysis on low level spells in the first place. Tradition be damned, if someone can't move a muscle, then they should be vulnerable to a mortal blow. Trying to put vulnerability distinctions between unconsciousness and paralysis is the kind of nit picking I wanted to see excised from D&D.

 

[Ichneumon]

Yeah, the playtest rules are a bit rough with regard to precise definitions. I'd treat helpless as "can't defend themselves", thus including unconscious, paralyzed, and stunned. Being completely tied up doesn't actually fit a condition - "paralyzed" would be the closest fit - but it does render defence impossible. (Unless you're a psion, perhaps).

But it does give a bound PC, no matter how high their level, a very good reason to be polite to the bandit holding a dagger to their throat. They can no longer say that it does "only 1d4 damage" and is therefore inconsequential. I wouldn't be surprised to see the coup de grace rule utilized by an assassin class (or theme).

 

[triqui]

Well, actually we have no "helpless" condition at the moment. So it's only a descriptive term, not a mechanical definition. It doesn't give any rules for the matter at hand.

We have, instead, the unconscious condition.

In fact I could ask you: is a paralized foe helpless?

A sleeping or completely tied one?

Can we execute coup de grace against them?

Welcome back to DM adjudication.

Your DM says if paralyzed is helpless. Or sleeping. Or tied. On the bright side, he can also declare that someone is helpless even if he does not fulfill some rule criteria. For example: an executioner can now coup de grace their living, untied, unparalized, awake target. He puts his neck in the stump, and beheads him. On other editions, it would be a bloodbath of hack and slash, because the target is not paralyzed, or sleeping, or tied. He is just kneeling, so do not even give Combat Adventage (you need prone to that)

 

[Aaron]

I think they're using 'helpless' in the descriptive sense, rather than as a condition. So in your example, the tied-up person or the paralyzed person would indeed be helpless.

Could you CdG them?

They are not unconscious.

In fact, an unconscious character is helpless, but not all helpless characters are unconscious.

Yeah, the playtest rules are a bit rough with regard to precise definitions. I'd treat helpless as "can't defend themselves", thus including unconscious, paralyzed, and stunned

Would you allow a CdG against a paralized and/or stunned foe?

The rules seem to negate CdG against stunned and/or paralized targets.

But it does give a bound PC, no matter how high their level, a very good reason to be polite to the bandit holding a dagger to their throat. They can no longer say that it does "only 1d4 damage" and is therefore inconsequential. I wouldn't be surprised to see the coup de grace rule utilized by an assassin class (or theme).

Actually, I read the rules as stating the opposite.

Since you can CdG only unconscious opponents, the PCs could laugh at their foes, even if tied up or paralized (how can you laugh while paralized? dunno).

Welcome back to DM adjudication.

Or to "pay for make up your rules".

Your DM says if paralyzed is helpless. Or sleeping. Or tied. On the bright side, he can also declare that someone is helpless even if he does not fulfill some rule criteria. For example: an executioner can now coup de grace their living, untied, unparalized, awake target. He puts his neck in the stump, and beheads him. On other editions, it would be a bloodbath of hack and slash, because the target is not paralyzed, or sleeping, or tied. He is just kneeling, so do not even give Combat Adventage (you need prone to that)

Well, the rules state that paralized creatures are not entitled to be CdGraced (is this a word?).

The executioner in your example is quite borderline, since it proposes a very limited and situational scenario, which is irrelevant for the 99,9999% % of adventures.

Not to mention that yes, a PC can't be CdGraced (again!) only because someone armed with a axe is trying to chop his head off and the PC is kneeling.
Welcome to D&D.

 

[Ichneumon]

Could you CdG them?

They are not unconsciuous.

In fact, an unconscious character is helpless, but not all helpless characters are unconscious.


Would you allow a CdG against a paralized and/or stunned foe?

The rules seem to negate CdG against stunned and/or paralized targets.

Having another look at the rules, yes they do. I wouldn't allow it in the playtest, but if the rule is the same in the released version, I very well might extend it to those cases. Makes sense to me.