Coupe de Grace: auto hit?

[WyzardWhately]

True. Weird, but true.

A true master of the martial arts can dodge a blow, even in his sleep.

I note that this makes vicious/vorpal weapons the tool of choice for killing people in their sleep.

 

[Switchback]

Your theory is that (being helpless) you cannot resist a mind affecting power (will defence), or dodge an incoming fireball (reflex defence).

By that same logic, you cannot defend against an arrow being fired at you, or a sword being swung at you.

If that's true, why does the helpless condition bother giving you -5 to all defences? if such attacks always hit, what is the purpose of the -5 penalty?

The only explanation I can see is that, somehow, coup-de-grace is not an automatic hit.

Because to perform a Coup de Grace as it states in the PHB, you have to be adjacent to the enemy.

If you are shooting an arrow at a helpless person lying 50 feet away, it is not a guaranteed hit, thus the -5 penalty.

If you are firing an arrow (or swinging a sword) into a body at your feet, you are not going to miss.

Here is further evidence from the playtesting sessions at DDXP, played with the developers where it was stated sleeping (unconscious) creatures were wailed on with automatic crits.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=226203&page=1&pp=15

But that's not true in 4e. Making the save wakes you up. Taking damage does not. I saw this multiple times at DDXP; you can wail away on a sleeping critter (yes, even a slime or a skeleton), dealing automatic crits every time, until it makes the save and wakes up.

And yet more evidence from the pre-release 4e notes where it was explained a bit better. You can see that all melee hits were considered automatic crits, and that was obviously changed to any power in the final printing, as long as you are adjacent.

 

[Kordeth]

If you are firing an arrow (or swinging a sword) into a body at your feet, you are not going to miss.

It's not likely, but you might, because you still need to make an attack roll.

Here is further evidence from the playtesting sessions at DDXP, played with the developers where it was stated sleeping (unconscious) creatures were wailed on with automatic crits.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=226203&page=1&pp=15

First of all, the only thing in that thread about DDXP and auto-crits is somebody saying he thought he remembered something on Mearls' blog about it. Second of all, "wailing on creatures with automatic crits" can just as easily be parsed as "successful attacks that were automatically crits" as it can "automatically successful attacks that were critical hits."

And yet more evidence from the pre-release 4e notes where it was explained a bit better. You can see that all melee hits were considered automatic crits, and that was obviously changed to any power in the final printing, as long as you are adjacent.

Considering that that's based on the DDM rules and is contradicted on other points (e.g. +4 to attack instead of -5 to all Defenses), it's irrelevant when compared to the actual PHB.

Remember, people, the coup de grace rules say "use any attack power you can use," then include the line "Hit: You score a critical hit."

The word "hit" when applied to a power has a very clear, very specific meaning in 4E. If coup de grace didn't require an attack roll, it would say "Effect: You score a critical hit."

 

[Switchback]

It's not likely, but you might, because you still need to make an attack roll.

You keep repeating this without giving evidence except your opinion. Nowhere does it say to make an attack, nowhere does it say not to. The PH is not clear, hence the reason for the thread.

I don't understand why you think two lumps of flesh laying on the ground unconscious would require vastly different chances to hit? If I'm casting a Magic Missile, why is a unconscious Drow doubly as hard to Coup de Grace as a unconscious Zombie? Does his limp body automatically dodge blows independent of his mind?

The word "hit" when applied to a power has a very clear, very specific meaning in 4E. If coup de grace didn't require an attack roll, it would say "Effect: You score a critical hit."

Sure it would. Regardless if it takes an attack roll, you have to know what effect the Coup De Grace actually does when it is used. In this case it turns your free attack (or not free attack) into a automatic critical hit.

 

[Kordeth]

You keep repeating this without giving evidence except your opinion. Nowhere does it say to make an attack, nowhere does it say not to. The PH is not clear, hence the reason for the thread.

I'm not giving my opinion, I'm using the defined terms that are part of the D&D system:

Helpless Target: You can deliver a coup de grace against a helpless enemy adjacent to you. Use any attack power you could normally use against the enemy, including a basic attack.
Hit: You score a critical hit.

Every power that requires an attack roll includes a
“Hit” entry, which explains what happens when an attack roll succeeds.

The coup de grace action is a standard action that uses an attack power and adds the effect "You score a critical hit" on a hit. Short of flat out saying "this attack is not an automatically successful attack roll," it can't get much clearer.

I don't understand why you think two lumps of flesh laying on the ground unconscious would require vastly different chances to hit? If I'm casting a Magic Missile, why is a unconscious Drow doubly as hard to Coup de Grace as a unconscious Zombie? Does his limp body automatically dodge blows independent of his mind?

4E has a lot of weird little things like this caused by simplifying the rules. I'm not worried about it, since it's one additional failsafe against PCs cheesing much higher-level foes.

Sure it would. Regardless if it takes an attack roll, you have to know what effect the Coup De Grace actually does when it is used. In this case it turns your free attack (or not free attack) into a automatic critical hit.

It turns your attack into an automatic critical hit if it hits. That's what "Hit: This effect" means. If coup de grace were an auto-hit, auto-crit, it would say "Effect: You score a critical hit," because an Effect is something that happens regardless of whether it hits or misses, while a Hit is something that only happens if an attack roll succeeds.

 

[Aezoc]

I think the problem from 3e is still around: what happens when you try to coup de grace a full hit point fighter who is asleep? You'll just make him mad. One crit isn't going to do enough to kill him.

I disagree. Remember that dealing the target's bloodied value in damage is an auto-kill with CDG. As a random example, take a level 10 fighter with a greataxe, vs. a helpless minotaur warrior (first level 10 soldier I saw in the MM). The minotaur's bloodied at 53 HP, and the fighter can use something like Reckless Strike or Victorious Surge with a greataxe to deal 48 points of damage before even considering Str mod, feats like Power Attack, weapon enhancement bonuses, etc.

Point being, if a fighter can insta-kill a helpless soldier of equal level with little difficulty, it ought to be pretty trivial for any of the striker classes to do it.

 

[Switchback]

I'm not giving my opinion, I'm using the defined terms that are part of the D&D system:

Yes, but the defined terms of the rules are full of specific exceptions that can alter the way things normally work. Obviously a monster being unconscious and unable to defend themselves calls into question their ability to defend at all. It's not like we are talking about a standard power here where a attack roll is a no-brainer, that they just forgot to mention.

You say that if the attack were meant to be a auto-hit, that it would read "Effect: You score a critical hit". But the Hit line is merely for how much damage you do, so that is actually still the obvious place to put the line "You score a critical" regardless if you make an attack or not. The effect line is reserved for powers that do something in addition to damage. If there are other Effect lines that do only damage, then that would be compelling evidence.

For example, let's assume a Magic Missile that was left as an auto-hit as older editions. It would still follow that the damage amount 2D4+INT would be placed on the Hit line and not the effect line. Just the hit would occur every single time. Because damage alone is not considered a 'effect' anywhere else I have seen.

 

[Kordeth]

Yes, but the defined terms of the rules are full of specific exceptions that can alter the way things normally work. Obviously a monster being unconscious and unable to defend themselves calls into question their ability to defend at all. It's not like we are talking about a standard power here where a attack roll is a no-brainer, that they just forgot to mention.

Exceptions only apply when there's actually an exception. An exception would be a statement that "you don't make an attack roll." There is no such statement, you're told to use an attack power. Part of using an attack power is making an attack roll. Without a specific rule saying you don't make one to trump the general rule that you do, there is no exception.

You say that if the attack were meant to be a auto-hit, that it would read "Effect: You score a critical hit". But the Hit line is merely for how much damage you do, so that is actually still the obvious place to put the line "You score a critical" regardless if you make an attack or not. The effect line is reserved for powers that do something in addition to damage.

No again. The definitions of "hit" and "effect" are specifically spelled out. "Hit" means "this happens when you succeed on an attack roll." Effect means "this happens whether you hit or miss."

You say that "the Hit line is merely for how much damage you do." What then of Sleep? What about Web? What about Curse of the Dark Delirium? None of them do any damage at all, but they have a "Hit" line. What about the paladin's divine challenge, which has damage as part of its Effect line?

You can argue that the use of "Hit" in coup de grace is an error, and until a dev comes in here and says yay or nay we'll have to agree to disagree, but you really can't argue the definition of a Hit in 4E terms, it's spelled out plainly on page 57. "Hit" is what happens when you attack with a power and succeed on the attack roll. You cannot have a "hit" effect without an attack roll.

 

[Switchback]

What then of Sleep? What about Web? What about Curse of the Dark Delirium? None of them do any damage at all, but they have a "Hit" line. What about the paladin's divine challenge, which has damage as part of its Effect line?

You can argue that the use of "Hit" in coup de grace is an error, and until a dev comes in here and says yay or nay we'll have to agree to disagree, but you really can't argue the definition of a Hit in 4E terms, it's spelled out plainly on page 57. "Hit" is what happens when you attack with a power and succeed on the attack roll. You cannot have a "hit" effect without an attack roll.

I can see you point to a degree. But as with the Paladin ability, it can do damage but is still part of a description that includes other effects. In other words, it would make no sense to list the damage that power does in a Hit line, because it would be extremely confusing since that damage is conditional. Are there any "effect" lines in the game that are only damage, not tied to another more complex effect?

Your way sits very uncomfortably with me. Since the description of CdG is so vague, I'm trying to make a common sense walkthrough.

It seems quite odd to me that you would swing your sword against a unconscious Giant for instance and possibly miss and hit the floor, but then if you *do* hit, that every time that hit is some massive vital strike. Why not then, could the character not hit, but not hit vital organs? Maybe I avoided hitting the floor but I only struck in his boot, which would in no way could be construed as a critical hit or traditional understanding of a Coup de Grace as some kind of critical and special deathblow strike. It would be very counter intuitive.

Not to mention the absurd reality that a level one character could walk up to a unconscious 30 foot dragon and swing endlessly and NEVER hit him except for 1 in 20 attempts on a natural 20! :\

 

[Vaeron]

You keep repeating this without giving evidence except your opinion. Nowhere does it say to make an attack, nowhere does it say not to. The PH is not clear, hence the reason for the thread.

PHB, unconscious:

You’re helpless.
*You take a –5 penalty to all defenses.*
You can’t take actions.
You fall prone, if possible.
You can’t flank an enemy.

That's a -5 to all defenses, not an automatic hit. Right there smack dab on the conditions page.