Cracking the weapons code (numerical analysis)

[Truename]

I've been trying to figure out how melee military and superior weapons are balanced. There's a definite system, but there's also a few puzzling inconsistencies. Here's what I've discovered so far. It works for 23 of the 32 ordinary military and superior weapons. If anybody can shed light on the exceptions, I'd appreciate it.

(By "ordinary," I mean that I've excluded double weapons and superior weapons that don't have a military counterpart.)

Here's the formula:

For two-handed weapons, start with average damage of 7.
For one-handed weapons, start with average damage of 5.5.

Then...
For superior weapons, add 1.
If it's high-crit, subtract 0.5.
If it's +3 proficiency, subtract 1.
If it's a reach weapon, subtract 1.5.
Heavy thrown, subtract 1.
Off-hand, subtract 1.
10/20 range, subtract 1.

Exceptions:
Subtract 0.5 for...
- Light war pick
- Scimitar
- War pick
- Glaive
- Spiked chain
- Falchion
- Khopesh
- Greatsword

Add 0.5 for Scourge.

Use the following table to map the average damage to the appropriate die roll.

2.5 1d4
3 -- no such weapon
3.5 1d6
4 1d6 brutal 1
4.5 1d8
5 2d4
5.5 1d10
6 -- no such weapon
6.5 1d12
7 2d6
7.5 1d12 brutal 2
8 2d6 brutal 1

 

[Allanon]

The only thing that stands out is that your formula doesn't take in account the versatile property. Also the fact that weapons like glaive, falchion and khopesh fall into two weapon categories (and thus qualify for more feats/powers) could be considered a bonus.

Maybe i's one or both of the above?

 

[WalterKovacs]

Feats are likely part of the equation, and there is bound to be some corner cases. The Spiked Chain, for example, was the only reach weapon with a +3 prof bonus (initially). Scimitar has it's own special feat, in addition to the blade feats it qualifies for.

It would be a matter of figuring out the "value" of feats for the different weapon groups (And in some cases, specific weapons for class/race reasons) but also the magical property restrictions, class restrictions, etc.

 

[Truename]

The only thing that stands out is that your formula doesn't take in account the versatile property. Also the fact that weapons like glaive, falchion and khopesh fall into two weapon categories (and thus qualify for more feats/powers) could be considered a bonus.

Maybe i's one or both of the above?

Actually, nearly every 1-handed military weapon is versatile. That property seems to be free.

Falchion is actually not in two weapon categories, but I think the secret has something to do with feats or powers as you said. Glaive is a polearm, and other polearms fit the formula just fine... but khopesh is an oddity. However, it's the only military weapon that's truly in two categories, so I'm reluctant to call it a rule. Heavy blades in general have low damage dice, though.

What really surprises me is that Scourge is so good... highest off-hand damage dice in the game, and it's high-crit too.

 

[N8Ball]

Use the following table to map the average damage to the appropriate die roll.

2.5 1d4
3 -- no such weapon
3.5 1d6
4 1d6 brutal 1
4.5 1d8
5 2d4
5.5 1d10
6 -- no such weapon
6.5 1d12
7 2d6
7.5 1d12 brutal 2
8 2d6 brutal 1

These numbers are all the existing weapons, but if you're thinking of making new weapons there's a few more options to consider to reach these numbers. Basicly every point of brutal adds .5 of average damage per die, so the following combinations are also possible.

3 - D4 brutal 1 (serrated dagger perhaps?)
3.5 - D4 brutal 2 (silly, but possible)
4.5 - D6 brutal 2 (still silly)
5 - D8 Brutal 1
5.5 - D8 brutal 2
6 - D10 Brutal 1 OR 2D4 Brutal 1
6.5 - D10 brutal 2
7 - D12 brutal 1 OR 2d4 Brutal 2 (again with the sillyness)


Personally, I think brutal 2 is a bit silly since it's numerically identical to a roll of the die 1 lower with a +2 bonus. So D12 brutal 2 is really just D10+2.

 

[TwoSix]

Personally, I think brutal 2 is a bit silly since it's numerically identical to a roll of the die 1 lower with a +2 bonus. So D12 brutal 2 is really just D10+2.

Yes, but 4e tries to avoid things like multiplying constants added to dice rolls, which is important considering all of the x[W] powers. Also, it's more fun to reroll a number at the table than to just do the math. You don't get the joy of turning a 3d10 total of 5 into a 22 with 1d10+2.

 

[Revinor]

I have done it bit differently. Only 1 extra point for being 2h, 1.5 points for +3 to hit, 1 point for high-crit, and made off-hand together with light-blade as 1 point (you need 1 point to get any of them, second one if for free) - rest the same as you.

I remember a thread done by somebody who has done a proper mathematical analysis - his costs were more like 1.34434, 1.75454 etc, but average error was a lot lower.

 

[evilbob]

I agree that weapon properties and feats make a difference in weapon values. Many very good properties are reserved for specific types of weapons, and some - like maces - only get a very few type-specific properties. Heavy blades and axes are, by contrast, able to hold a great deal more different kinds of magical bonuses.

Also, and this may be a separate issue, but where the "brutal" property starts to break down is large weapons. Normally, a 1d12 weapon that becomes large only gets a .5 boost to 2d6 - one of the lowest boosts you can get, although the minimum damage increases by 1, and that's worth something. However, a 1d12 brutal 2 weapon that turns into a 2d6 brutal 2 weapon gets a big boost, from 7.5 to 9 and with a minimum damage increase of 3. (I suspect this is part of the reason they decided "oversized" may be too much for PCs.) It's hard to really weigh something like that, since the potential is there but it doesn't happen often.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

A quick fix for a large version of a 1d12 brutal 2 weapon: increase dice as normal, reduce brutal by 1.

1d12 brutal 2 = 7.5 average, 2d6 brutal 1 = 8 average. Problem solved

Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean anything with regards to Oversized. Personally, I think that oversized should not be available to PCs. But large weapons might be needed for monsters and such, so it's a good problem to think about.