D&D 5E Critical Hits Appears to be Next in D&D Archive

[SteveC]

Just to add a little to the discussion, the problem with "only hits on a 20" = always crits is a bigger problem than you might imagine.

Two years ago I played in the D&D Open where you had a huge number of level one orc barbarians (raging, natch) that attacked the group. The characters that were presented were high enough level and we prepared enough so that we were only being hit on a 20. However, the orcs were raging berserkers and also used greataxes, so that a hit was a significant thing, and a crit could very likely have taken out a character all at once.

Experiences like this aren't that unusual to D&D, where you can have, in effect, glass cannons, who can do a lot of damage, but are also quite fragile.

So the 20 = auto hit = auto crit can have a pretty big impact at the table, especially for wizards and other low HP characters. One of the things I liked about 3X was that my spell caster could engineer a situation where his low HP would be much less of a factor than they were in previous editions.

So I'd say that auto hit and auto crit on a 20, if that is in fact the way it works in 4E (which, if based on SAGA, is how it will work) is a step backwards. It's simple enough to house rule, which is what I do in my SAGA game, where a Nat 20 is always a hit, but it's only a crit if it would have hit normally.

So that's my $.02.

--Steve

 

[Kaisoku]

Just to add a little to the discussion, the problem with "only hits on a 20" = always crits is a bigger problem than you might imagine.

<snip>

the orcs were raging berserkers and also used greataxes, so that a hit was a significant thing, and a crit could very likely have taken out a character all at once.

<snip>

So the 20 = auto hit = auto crit can have a pretty big impact at the table, especially for wizards and other low HP characters.

<snip>

So I'd say that auto hit and auto crit on a 20, if that is in fact the way it works in 4E (which, if based on SAGA, is how it will work) is a step backwards.

<snip>

--Steve

The problem here is that you are taking one aspect of the 4e system (crits on 20s), and ignoring the other half (no more double/triple.quadruple damage).

Yes, nat 20 = crit/autohit would be a significant thing and have a large impact on play... IF, and this is a big IF, the damage was able to threaten the players as much as it did in 3.X.


The thing people seem to be missing is that other than special class gained features/magical effects, a critical hit is no more than what is already possible in a normal hit.

Basically... if those orcs swinging full damage with their weapons is going to be that large an impact, then it is not the critical hit mechanics breaking the encounter.


You can't take the critical hit mechanics as stand alone, and apply it to normal 3e encounter situations. On top of that, we can't assume that these mechanics were built in a vaccuum... player defenses are probably different from 3.X as well.

My suggestion would be to wait and see the rules as a whole and how they interact with each other before declaring "I'm houseruling this out".

 

[frankthedm]

So the 20 = auto hit = auto crit can have a pretty big impact at the table, especially for wizards and other low HP characters. One of the things I liked about 3X was that my spell caster could engineer a situation where his low HP would be much less of a factor than they were in previous editions.

And I suspect wotc is trying to devaluate Heavy AC builds specifically with this new crit system. Letting foes attack you can no longer be defeated by cranking AC since now every 4E natural 20 will be ripping off a good chunk rather than a 3E natural 20 only having a 5% chance to eat a HUGE chunk of HP.

Mr. Super AC can't just sit there hoping the few hits that do get through won't be significant.

 

[Kaisoku]

Also, a note on "the only hits are critical" thing.

This is something I consider a non-issue. It actually makes the most thematic sense.


The farmer can only hit if he lands a 20, meaning his normal attacks bounce off all the armor, and are dodged or deflected...

So the only time the farmer can land a hit is if it somehow gets past ALL those defenses, and finds the one, critical chink in the armor. It makes total sense that the only hits he can land are the ones that find a critical spot past everything.

And since all it does is make it so his damage is maxed, this farm swinging his walking stick doesn't get a massive pulverizing hit, he just hits for max damage when he does manage to land the hit.


And as for the problem about farmers not having a chance to do massive damage... please explain why they should be capable of doing such damage. I mean, in regular combat... coup-de-grace rules haven't be detailed yet here, and could explain different kinds of threat... were talking about regular slugfest combat. Why should the lvl 1 commoner threaten the lvl 5 Heroic PCs with some massive damage in general melee?

 

[Spatula]

The thing people seem to be missing is that other than special class gained features/magical effects, a critical hit is no more than what is already possible in a normal hit.

You left out weapon properties (like the statted out pick from the preview article, which has some unknown additional benefit on a crit). In which case, change the orcs from wielding 2H axes to 2H picks (or scythes, or whatever the equivalent will be in 4e) and there is potentially the same sort of problem. But we don't know enough about the surrounding mechanics to really judge that yet - how survivable are 1st level PCs, what do pick-like weapons actually do on a crit, etc.

 

[Spatula]

No, because there's absolutely no need. The fact that this page went beyond 10 pages, with a bunch of people expressing the belief that 3e's crit system isn't fun, proves that people feel that way.

They do now, in any case.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Can you point me to any thread before this article where people were saying that the 3X crit system was not fun? Any thread at all. It has become like a political or religious thing. It was completely off the radar a day ago, but WotC said it, I believe it, that settles it.
It'll happen again in a week or two. WotC will decree that some other part of 3X sucked and suddenly a camp of myrmidons will start singing "amen, I always thought just that."

Personally, I have no problem with the mechanic. However, I've been introducing a lot of new players to the game lately, and have noticed that many of them perceive a missed crit confirmation as something of a buzzkill. This leads me to believe that this is WotC responding to feedback, not feedback responding to WotC.

 

[ogre]

The farmer can only hit if he lands a 20, meaning his normal attacks bounce off all the armor, and are dodged or deflected...

yeah, that is what I was saying exactly. Thx for putting it more plainly!

 

[Kaisoku]

You left out weapon properties (like the statted out pick from the preview article, which has some unknown additional benefit on a crit). In which case, change the orcs from wielding 2H axes to 2H picks (or scythes, or whatever the equivalent will be in 4e) and there is potentially the same sort of problem. But we don't know enough about the surrounding mechanics to really judge that yet - how survivable are 1st level PCs, what do pick-like weapons actually do on a crit, etc.

Sorry, forgot about that.

According to the article, we are talking about adding 1d6 damage for being a crit-heavy weapon. So max damage + 1d6.

So update my quote to say "if 1d6 more than normally possible damage is a problem".


Considering there's a "nice cushion of hitpoints" for even Wizards in 4e, I'm getting the feeling, and am willing to give the benefit of the doubt, that they aren't making the Crit system basically an all out slaughter fest like a 'no-confirmation and orc + greataxe in 3.X combat system' would be.

Kind of silly to declare House Ruling based on a skewed and incomplete view of the mechanic.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm curious to know if the extra damage dice on a crit are maxed as well?

For example a that +1 frost sword does an extra +1d6 on a crit, is it actually 6 damage because the die are maximised?

Else the whole, get a crit just do max damage is going to go out the window after a few levels when everyone has magic weapons (even if they get them less frequently in 4e).

If part of the point is to prevent dice rolling, that doesn't help if I get a bunch of extra 1d6's on a crit that I have to roll anyway.