Critical Hits & Ongoing Damage

[Xzylvador]

The topic pretty much says it all... But I suppose I'll spell it out.
My Divine Oracle Wizard/Cleric Multiclass control freak hits an enemy with "Impending Doom" (garantees a critical if the next attack hits), his next attack on the enemy, "Seal of Binding" does 3d10+Wis damage on a hit and 2d10+Wis as long as it's sustained.
Supposed Wisdom 26 (+8): This crit will make the initial damage do 38 damage on the initial hit... Will it also do its max damage (28) every round it's sustained?
Same quetion for every spell that doesn't do a fixed amount of ongoing damage... Though I should also point out that Seal of Binding's damage is not "ongoing" but a part of the sustained effect. Is there a difference between this and ongoing for the purpose of critical damage?
(-Note, the sustain of Seal of Binding does not require new attack rolls.)

 

[Hypersmurf]

[blink]

You know, I have another question.

Let's say I cast Mordenkainen's Sword. Attack: Int vs Reflex. Hit: 1d10+Int Force damage.

Let's say I miss. Nothing happens. On the next round, I spend a minor action to Sustain the power, and the Sustain text occurs (in this case, "The sword attacks again").

Now let's say I cast Seal of Binding. Attack: Wis vs Will. Hit: 3d10+Wis damage, target is stunned, target can't be affected by other attacks.

Let's say I miss. Nothing happens. On the next round, I spend a standard action to Sustain the power, and the Sustain text occurs.

Arguably, since the target is not currently stunned or protected against other attacks, the line "the target remains stunned and protected" is inapplicable. But I don't see any reason why a miss with the initial attack roll will prevent the 2d10 to me and the target each time I sustain the power. There doesn't seem to be a requirement for the initial attack to hit, in order for the Sustain section to apply.

If this is the case, then the Sustain section is not directly connected to the attack roll, and thus the 2d10+Wis is not affected by the critical hit and is not maximized.

-Hyp.

 

[Branduil]

Seal of Binding really is amazing. I'm not sure they could made it more broken by the RAW if they had deliberately tried.

 

[Xzylvador]

Damned you all, these aren't answers, only more trouble!
(I doubt though that you're supposed to be able to sustain a power that didn't hit, unless it's a zone. For sure my (or any reasonable) DM wouldn't allow it)

 

[Branduil]

Seal of Binding is a hideous mess of ambiguous wording. It is my belief that by the RAI you're not supposed to be able to sustain it if you miss. At the same time, the damage in subsequent rounds is automatic if you sustain and doesn't require an attack roll, so I wouldn't think critical damage could apply.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Page 278 seems to indicate that you only maximize damage related to the attack, so you would roll subsequent damage.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Seal of Binding is a hideous mess of ambiguous wording. It is my belief that by the RAI you're not supposed to be able to sustain it if you miss.[...]

Why? Is it really that broken? It essentially takes a monster out of the fight as long as you and the target keep taking damage. Its definitely useful, but doing only 2d10+Wis per round to a target, and taking the damage as well doesnt seem very broken.

 

[Hypersmurf]

(I doubt though that you're supposed to be able to sustain a power that didn't hit, unless it's a zone. For sure my (or any reasonable) DM wouldn't allow it)

Actually, I think you probably are supposed to be... consider many of the Warlock powers with Sustain entries.

Some of them say "If you miss, you can no longer sustain this power", but many of them don't.

Compare the formatting of Curse of the Bloody Fangs or Curse of the Black Frost - which, to me, appear as though they can be sustained on a miss - with Hurl Through Hell, which I think unambiguously cannot be sustained on a miss. Aside from the fact that the stated effect is irrelevant to a miss, not how the others have "Hit", "Miss", "Sustain", in that order, all indented to the same extent, while Hurl Through Hell has "Hit", an indented "Sustain" below it, then "Miss".

Seal of Binding looks to me to be formatted like Curse of the Golden Mist or Tendrils of Thuban - even if you miss, you get to Sustain next round - with the difference being that those powers have an attack roll that can end the power on a miss when you Sustain. But if they lacked the line "On a miss, the power ends", I'd say they could be Sustained indefinitely (up to the usual 5-minute limit, anyway) even if they missed every time.

-Hyp.

 

[Branduil]

Why? Is it really that broken? It essentially takes a monster out of the fight as long as you and the target keep taking damage. Its definitely useful, but doing only 2d10+Wis per round to a target, and taking the damage as well doesnt seem very broken.

Except the Cleric casts Divine Regeneration beforehand, and then the Wizard casts cloudkill.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Except the Cleric casts Divine Regeneration beforehand, and then the Wizard casts cloudkill.

So the regen takes care of the Wis damage for the cleric, and Cloudkill makes it 3d10+INT+WIS (Wizard and Cleric stats respectively) for the target. Its still just that and 2d10 per round for the cleric until the Cleric is bloodied. I still dont see how thats broken. Compare it to how much damage an entire party would do over the course of the rounds. Even with extra healing for the cleric, it just doesnt seem that broken for the cost of the constant damage to the cleric, and the inability for the rest of the party to do anything (except for a wizard with cloudkill). I may be wrong, but I just dont see it.