D&D 5E CRs and what is going on?

[Azurewraith]

"Quantity has a quality of its own" was a design goal for Bounded Accuracy. They WANTED low-level PCs to be able to tackle dragons by rallying villagers, or guards to be able to plausibly hold off fire giants without needing to be high-level fighters.

And of course they wanted the monster roster to expand and never contract. Orc Hordes are supposed to still be a threat at high level. I'm not sure that they actually are, but they're supposed to be.

I can't imagine they are tbh

 

[Shadowdweller00]

My 99+ damage estimate was based on this:

Each round the balor is engaged with two PCs in melee combat who take full damage from its Fire Aura: 2 * 10 = 20 fire damage net

Each round the balor endures 4 melee attacks made from PCs within 5 feet, triggering the second part of its Fire Aura: 4 * 10 = 40 fire damage net

Thing is, that's not a reasonable presumption at all. PCs tend to avoid hurting themselves...and your scenario requires that not merely one but MULIPLE PCs stupidly close into range of the aura and continue to make personally damaging attacks. Virtually all characters by that level (including fully 100% of tactically aware players) will have ranged attacks. The DMG computes the effect of the Azer's mostly equivalent ability by adding the extra damage ONCE per round. Since the balor's fire aura only deals damage at the beginning of its turn and since the balor has a reach of 30 feet (c.f. opportunity attacks)....there isn't any penalty for just stepping away from it.

There are any number of things that could easily fix the balor...making the fire aura deal damage at the END of the balor's turn, giving the thing the ability to teleport as either a bonus action or reaction, giving the whip a grapple effect, increasing the base melee damage at the "expense" of lowering death burst damage, allowing the creature to make attacks of opportunity when enemies moves more than 5 feet away...

...but none were put into the base listing.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I can't imagine they are tbh

Maybe, maybe not. I know hobgoblin platoons are pretty nasty though, especially against PCs optimized for something other than sustained AC. E.g. 12th level GWM battlemaster fighters with AC 18 are great against Hezrous and Mariliths but stink against 25 hobgoblins. I've seen such a fighter kill four Hobgoblins in a turn with Action Surge but take 134 points of damage in return. The main thing the hobgoblins need to do is disperse their formation to protect against AoE--and they are smart and disciplined enough to do it, too. Maybe unlike orcs. Maybe not.

 

[Quickleaf]

Thing is, that's not a reasonable presumption at all. PCs tend to avoid hurting themselves...and your scenario requires that not merely one but MULIPLE PCs stupidly close into range of the aura and continue to make personally damaging attacks. Virtually all characters by that level (including fully 100% of tactically aware players) will have ranged attacks. The DMG computes the effect of the Azer's mostly equivalent ability by adding the extra damage ONCE per round. Since the balor's fire aura only deals damage at the beginning of its turn and since the balor has a reach of 30 feet (c.f. opportunity attacks)....there isn't any penalty for just stepping away from it.

There are any number of things that could easily fix the balor...making the fire aura deal damage at the END of the balor's turn, giving the thing the ability to teleport as either a bonus action or reaction, giving the whip a grapple effect, increasing the base melee damage at the "expense" of lowering death burst damage, allowing the creature to make attacks of opportunity when enemies moves more than 5 feet away...

...but none were put into the base listing.

I agree it's not a reasonable presumption - after a few PCs got burned the players would quickly catch on to avoid attacking it in melee (or if they are to have fire protection). I was trying to explain one possibility for what the designers were thinking for why it's listed as CR 19.

Those are all good suggestions for fixes, and the sorts of things I would definitely do with this monster.

Another idea would be to give it super resistance against ranged weapons, maybe minimize damage dealt to the balor by ranged weapons. Would give warrior and rogue types motivation to close to melee if their bows are only doing a few damage per hit.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I'd just rework it a lot. Not the biggest fan of the new style of DR and MR along with a few other things in 5e so I'll probably be doing some work on a lot of monsters.

Then again the 1e Balor was kind of weak too. 8+8 HD was lame.

 

[Quickleaf]

Then again the 1e Balor was kind of weak too. 8+8 HD was lame.

"And I battled the fiend long in the bowels and thru the deep places of Arda. Finally I pursued the beast up the Endless Stair to the peak of Celebdil, where I fought the demon for two days and nights..."

Gandalf succeeds his Bluff check.

 

[Gillywonka]

Takes two stabs to kill someone in 5E. Balor gets one longsword attack per action.



How do you get surprise on a Lore Bard or Rogue with a Passive Perception of around 17 to 18 at level 7. Balor does not have the Stealth skill and only a +2 from Dex.



Cast fly spell on melee. Flight doesn't matter at all to ranged attackers. You can ground the Balor by reducing its speed to zero, which there are multiple ways to accomplish.



A balor gets to teleport as an action. So you're saying use its action to teleport rather than attack? That is completely in the party's favor. It can only teleport 120 feet per action.



I'd make the balor more like a balor. It's the most powerful demon other than the lords in the abyss. No idea why it was made so weak in 5E.

Hot dang... the balor really is inadequate.
The campaigan i'm running hasnt encountered anything over CR 5. I'd beef it up as mentioned. (Although i'll still give anyone surprise for teleporting behind someone regardless of their passive perception.)

 

[Celtavian]

Hot dang... the balor really is inadequate.
The campaigan i'm running hasnt encountered anything over CR 5. I'd beef it up as mentioned. (Although i'll still give anyone surprise for teleporting behind someone regardless of their passive perception.)

Yep. I think the Pit Fiend is a bit better. They kind of watered down the Balor.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

I agree it's not a reasonable presumption - after a few PCs got burned the players would quickly catch on to avoid attacking it in melee (or if they are to have fire protection). I was trying to explain one possibility for what the designers were thinking for why it's listed as CR 19.

As for your main point - fair enough. As to nitpicking damage calculations: the designers don't presume that, actually. According to the text on p.278 of the DMG it is presumed that the fire aura hits ONE target, which is much more reasonable. The real culprit (well...for twice the numerical impact of the fire aura anyway) for driving up the damage calculations is the Death Throes ability, which adds 140 damage to a single round (averaged over a supposed three round combat). That might be reasonable to some extent, particular for kamikaze-exploder type enemies. It's just that I detest the flavor of having a creature that is supposed be one of the great lords of the abyss being most threatening for how it dies.

Damage Calculation Reference
3 round average - {[(21 slashing + 13 lightning (longsword) + 15 slashing + 10 fire (whip) + 10 fire (fire aura-location) + 10 fire (fire aura-melee response)] x 3 + (70 damage x two targets - death throes)} / 3 rounds = 125 or so per round.

 

[Sunseeker]

I can't imagine they are tbh

It depends on how you play them. They're low AC and low HP, so by high level (lets say 15) you're probably going to one-shot them. This isn't particularly a problem if they're played smartly. Throw in a couple Orc Warchiefs, a couple Eye of Grummush(sp). If the orcs need to rally an army to take down the players, play it like an organized fighting force. Flank. Stay at range when you can. Swarm. Keep commanders in the back where they can command. Separate the party.

Sure, evey round you'll lose X orcs where X is the number of attacks your party has per turn, but honestly if you're throwing a 100+orc force against the party, the goal isn't to have a one-on-one honorable combat with each player. It's to wear them out, drain their resources and overwhelm them into defeat.

Lets take the Orc War Chief "Battle Cry" ability:
First: it affects every creature within 30 feet. It is clearly designed to be used with non-orcs in the war-party. Maybe ogres, trolls or some other beasts.
-Subpont: 30x30 is 36 squares, discounting the one square for the Orc War Chief, this is a maximum of 35 orcs.
Second: these 35 creatures then all gain advantage until the Orc War Chief's next turn. Advantage is powerful stuff.

Combine this with strategically keeping some units at range, with potentially 2 or three groups of these? That's over 100 attacks per turn, with advantage. Even if the orcs are all at range and use their weaker javelin attack (1d6+3) that's ~100d6+300 dmg per round. Assuming half hit and average damage? +/-300dmg per round.

Also: fight on familiar terrain. Lure the players into a canyon, or a trapped plain. Don't attack the player's fortress, or if you do: do it the same way the players brought down the orc fortress, with careful planning and strategy.