D&D 3.5 Orcs: back to Tolkien?

[d4]

i remember hearing somewhere in one of the documentaries on the Extended FOTR DVD that at least one of the WETA designers had played D&D. i wouldn't be surprised if some of the artwork was at least at some level inspired by RPG art, but it doesn't mean that the final result owes all that much to it.

also, on one of the audio commentary tracks for the Two Towers, Peter Jackson mentions that he wanted to add the scene of Gandalf and the Balrog fighting as they fall because of a picture of John Howe's he had seen. supposedly the picture had been used "in a card game or RPG" or something, in Jackson's words.

 

[Zander]

To me, it's fairly clear that orcs in D&D nowadays are more to represent the Warhammer/Warcraft breed of orc, both from the way the rules treat them and the way they are typically illustrated.

The way Warhammer (Games Workshop/Citadel) represents orcs is ultimately based on a couple of (black & white?) illustrations by Frank Frazetta.

From their appearance (apart from their colour), I would say that D&D half-orcs and the Uruk Hai in the TTT film are both based on Warhammer orcs and therefore indirectly on Farzetta's pictures.

I don't know what the inspiration for the look of goblins was in Warhammer, but they've been that way (more or less) since the Fighting Fantasy gamebooks and Warhammer first appeared in 1983 IIRC. Speculatively, I would suggest that they're loosely based on the Green Goblin from the Spider-Man comic. I suspect that GW's goblins were the inspiration for the orcs/goblins commanded by Saruman in TTT film - the waurg (sp) riders in particular.

Personally, I imagine both orcs and goblins have green skin, though orcs are darker and some varieties verge on being black. Goblins are a lighter shade. Half-orcs vary from human shades of skin to orc colour. In form, orcs look like Uruk Hai from TTT while goblins look like GW's depiction. YMMV.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

It is just me, or do the green-skinned orcs (esp. with porcine features) seem quite close to the Gamorrean Guards from Star Wars (or vice-versa)?

 

[Taelorn76]

You are not alone. I see that similarity as well.

 

[Zander]

It is just me...

I agree. In fact I bought the original action figure when SW:RotJ came out because I thought it looked orkish.

 

[WizarDru]

It is just me, or do the green-skinned orcs (esp. with porcine features) seem quite close to the Gamorrean Guards from Star Wars (or vice-versa)?

I remember thinking vice-versa when I saw Return of the Jedi, which I think was the first place they appeared.

 

[Desdichado]

The way Warhammer (Games Workshop/Citadel) represents orcs is ultimately based on a couple of (black & white?) illustrations by Frank Frazetta.

The only Frazzetta pictures of orcs that I'm aware of look nothing like either the Warhammer orcs or the movie LOTR orcs. http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/frazzetta/orcs.jpg

From their appearance (apart from their colour), I would say that D&D half-orcs and the Uruk Hai in the TTT film are both based on Warhammer orcs and therefore indirectly on Farzetta's pictures.

Why in the world would you say that? Warhammer orcs have extremely exaggerated features, like green, hairless apes, only even more exaggerated even than that. They look nothing at all like the TTT Uruk-hai.

I don't know what the inspiration for the look of goblins was in Warhammer, but they've been that way (more or less) since the Fighting Fantasy gamebooks and Warhammer first appeared in 1983 IIRC. Speculatively, I would suggest that they're loosely based on the Green Goblin from the Spider-Man comic. I suspect that GW's goblins were the inspiration for the orcs/goblins commanded by Saruman in TTT film - the waurg (sp) riders in particular.

Again, the LOTR movie versions look nothing like what you suspect is the inspiration for them. Where your getting these suspicions is completely beyond me. In fact, it's particularly ironic given that Games Workshop also make the Lord of the Rings miniatures game, so you can really see the contrast between the LOTR orcs and goblins and the Warhammer orcs and goblins.

Personally, I imagine both orcs and goblins have green skin, though orcs are darker and some varieties verge on being black. Goblins are a lighter shade. Half-orcs vary from human shades of skin to orc colour. In form, orcs look like Uruk Hai from TTT while goblins look like GW's depiction. YMMV.

What orcs? D&D orcs have never been described as green-skinned, nor have Tolkien's orcs. Goblins in form in D&D also look nothing like Warhammer goblins, which have exaggerated, almost clownlike anatomies which are fine (especially for Blood Bowl, IIMO, which is a silly game to begin with) but nothing at all like anything in either D&D or Tolkien.

 

[Bran Blackbyrd]

Who's copying who? Orc costume design, not to mention most of the principle photography for the movies, was well underway when 3e came out.

Which probably means that 3E was well under production when the movies started principle photography, but I won't state that as fact because I haven't looked it up. Also, I don't much care.

Besides, LOTR movie orcs and the pictures of 3e orcs have very little in common anyway; 3e orcs are very Warhammer-ish in illustration.

Well, I'm not in the boat full of people that think they are similar. I'm just working with what I'm given.

I think that's definately an overstatment. For one thing, no, nobody on the LotR production team also did work for D&D.

Which might matter if that had been part of my [over]statement.

...

Michael Kaluta (and maybe someone else too, although he's the only one I know of) did a LotR calendar one year and he also freelances occasionally for D&D.

There you have it.

Most of the big names in Tolkien illustration: John Howe, Alan Lee, even Darrell K. Sweet, etc.

[sarcasm]Anyone who reads the Wheel of Time books knows that Darrell K. Sweet is not so much an artist as he is someone who vandalizes book covers. I'm afraid I just can't have a debate with someone so ill-informed. [/sarcasm]

 

[Desdichado]

Well, what do you consider an "official" Lord of the Rings' illustrator? And what's with this quote from your earlier post that you seem to be saying you didn't say?

Some of the same people that have done art for official LOTR books have probably done art for D&D and vice versa. We all draw from the same well of inspiration.

And now that I've read your second post, I have to wonder what your point is at all, for that matter?

 

[Bran Blackbyrd]

Well, what do you consider an "official" Lord of the Rings' illustrator? And what's with this quote from your earlier post that you seem to be saying you didn't say?

And now that I've read your second post, I have to wonder what your point is at all, for that matter?

Addressing the first question; The key here is that I never said that I thought anyone involved with the movie ever did work for D&D. You seemed to think that I had.

As to what my point is; My main point is that I don't think that the current D&D orcs are in any way a rip-off, homage, copy, etc. of the orcs depicted in the recent LoTR films. Also, I think that any debate on who ripped off or copied who is a fruitless endeavor. Even sillier than the usual arguments of how much of D&D should have a JRRT trademark on it is the notion that orcs in 3.5 have suddenly changed to match the movies' depiction of orcs, when in fact they look the same as they did in 3.0.