D&D General D&D 3.5 - splatbook power creep or no?

[Maxperson]

I mean, that's fine if you're not concerned, but that's the core of the argument around class tiers and class imbalance.

I mean, I didn't care much either, but I was also savvy enough to look at the nascent CharOp sites and realize that playing casters was the better option, so that's what I always did.

My 4 favorite classes, played about equally, were cleric, wizard, fighter and rogue.

My experience doesn't match those. Clerics generally had decent Charisma (better than fighters and rogues, normally), and skill-boosting items weren't that expensive. Mind magic never really played a role in caster dominance, IMX. Charming/suggestions were a "break glass in case of emergency" type thing.

And although there weren't many Charisma classes in Tier 1, there are plenty of sorcerer-type classes with Cha primary as "nearly as good" Tier 2 classes, which also saw plenty of play.

Charisma bonus doesn't compensate for the skill points available to a rogue. At 1st level the rogue can be at rank 4. With no charisma bonus for the rogue, it takes a cleric or sorcerer an 18 in charisma to even equal that. Being cross class and having very limited points meant that no points were being put into social skills for those two classes.

By level 4 the rogue is at +7, and maybe the cleric or sorcerer is at +5, and then only if he got lucky and started with a 19 instead of 18. The reality is that even clerics and sorcerers rarely started with even an 18 in charisma. They could not come close to the rogue for social skills without using magic.

@Voadam since part of this concerns your response to me as well. You both mentioned buying items. Magic-mart could not be assumed and a whole lot of us didn't use it.

But yes, if you allowed unlimited downtime and had magic-mart, lots of scrolls and skill helping items made casters the way to go for skills as well as their primary function.

 

[SkidAce]

There's never really down time. The wizard starts scribing a scroll and 4 hours in a woman screams from a nearby alley. The world moves on and interesting things happen. The wizard might get lucky and nothing happens. Or something might happen and it takes 4 hours of game time for everyone else at the table to finish with it.

Down time is an artificial construct to enable PCs to break the game. If the DM is running a living, breathing world, there will rarely, if ever be any down time.

I agree and I don't.

Statistically there would be "slow" times, they can't save the world every day (?)

But I agree that the DM can dispense down time IAW the story and control it's potential abuse.

 

[Maxperson]

Low level utility spells in wands or scrolls are really effective things for a wizard to buy or craft in general so I don't think a smart thoughtful player will avoid taking them.

Knock is a decent wizard investment for auto opening a lock versus an average lock DC 25 skill check for the rogue who might or might not invest in that specific skill. Also necessary for getting past an arcane lock warded thing.

In 3.0 a wand of invisibility will be 30 minutes of invisibility per charge, great for turning someone into a sneaky scout in addition to being able to be used defensively for the wizard themself. Even in minute per level 3.5 it is also a great buff for a rogue, allowing them to often get off a sneak attack they might not otherwise get such as if they are staying out of melee.

My eldritch knight regularly used charm person to interrogate minion prisoners for information instead of social skill checks or roleplaying out interrogations (I found threats of torture and actual torture very distasteful).

A wand of low level summon monster is decent for triggering suspected traps without getting hit yourself.

Spider climb, levitate, and flying are very useful, and often their auto success is better than a possible success climb skill roll.

Use magic device didn't become reliable until mid level. With a 14 charisma and at 5th level, the rogue would have a 50/50 shot of using that wand.

As for charm person, mind magic is very often highly illegal and has severe repercussions for its use. Out in the wilds, no problem. If you're in or nearby civilization, it's wisest not to resort to that sort of magic. Now, some DMs don't bother to try and figure out what would or would not be illegal, and/or don't read the settings where they spell it out. In doing so they allows charms and other mind magic to have greater impact on the game than they ordinarily would.

 

[Maxperson]

I agree and I don't.

Statistically there would be "slow" times, they can't save the world every day (?)

But I agree that the DM can dispense down time IAW the story and control it's potential abuse.

I agree, but down time is like wandering monsters. It only takes one or two to make the group wary enough to try and avoid situations where it can occur.

It only takes once or twice with the player of the wizard sitting out for a session or sometimes longer of game play for the player to not want to risk the chance that something might happen.

I'm not suggesting that the DM deliberately sabotage the magic item attempt, but with random rolls and city events, it will happen often enough on its own that the player will decide against the risk.

 

[GrimCo]

If the DM is lax, sure. Even scroll scribing takes both time, and calm around the wizard. If the DM is just like, "Okay, 3 weeks pass while you scribe scrolls. Now what does everyone want to do?" it can break the game. If the world keeps on moving like a living, breathing world does, the wizard player is sitting on his butt while everyone else is doing stuff. Players don't like to sit around at the table while everyone else is having fun, so only a few important scrolls get scribed and most magic items are found or purchased(if items are for sale).

Scribing scrolls were mostly downtime activity for wizards (1 scroll - 1day). And while yes, most items were found or purchased, wizards were class that usually had most gold since they didn't need to invest heavily into magical armor and weapons, so wands and scrolls were natural choice on what to spend hard earned cash.

Even if you run living, breathing world, PC's aren't always on the adventure. Woman screaming in the alley is just another backdrop noise of city life. Quiet and safe doesn't mean sound proof bubble, it means normal environment where one can concentrate without distractions.

Scrolls were fast, cheap and easy to scribe. Now, if you played games without downtime, sure, then scrolls were not that common. But in most adventures i played, we usually had few downtown days between sessions if we didn't end on cliffhanger. 3-4 scrolls of most useful utility spells were always there. Also, potions, they were easy and cheap to create, you can make 1000gp worth of potions per day.

 

[Pedantic]

Yea, but that isn't really the argument. It's not about a specific player, it's about the integrity of the class niche.

I agree that if a player in your group is playing a rogue, than using your wizard spell slots to cover stealth and lockpicking is a waste. Where the issue arose is if the question becomes "We're going to do several different dungeon crawls in this game, I'm going to play a character to cover scouting, stealth, and lockpicking"; you're much better off (in terms of being efficacious at those roles) making a Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer X as opposed to a Rogue X (or even Rogue 5/roguish prestige class).

In an ideal world, some version of fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard (or similar substitutes) would be the ideal balanced party. But in 3.5, a party of tank cleric/support cleric/2 utility wizards is simply much more flexible and potent that a party with a fighter and rogue in those spots instead.

This isn't some white room theorycrafting for me; I watched this happen in real time over the course of my years running and playing 3.5 and later PF1. By the time we got to our third campaign, a group that had seen a mix of caster classes and other classes had converted to all playing variations of casters.

I still imagine an alternate universe where the synthesis we got out of this was deciding the more flexible caster party had the better gameplay experience, and designing from there. We basically lost the whole gameplay loop with skill challenges and later 5e style flexible spell preparation.

 

[Maxperson]

Scribing scrolls were mostly downtime activity for wizards (1 scroll - 1day). And while yes, most items were found or purchased, wizards were class that usually had most gold since they didn't need to invest heavily into magical armor and weapons, so wands and scrolls were natural choice on what to spend hard earned cash.

Even if you run living, breathing world, PC's aren't always on the adventure. Woman screaming in the alley is just another backdrop noise of city life. Quiet and safe doesn't mean sound proof bubble, it means normal environment where one can concentrate without distractions.

Scrolls were fast, cheap and easy to scribe. Now, if you played games without downtime, sure, then scrolls were not that common. But in most adventures i played, we usually had few downtown days between sessions if we didn't end on cliffhanger. 3-4 scrolls of most useful utility spells were always there. Also, potions, they were easy and cheap to create, you can make 1000gp worth of potions per day.

I don't know what kinds of players you played with, but every group I've ever played with would investigate the screams. The good groups to save her. The evil groups to see if they could murder the attackers and take their stuff.

Even 1 day of scribing would put the wizard's player at risk of sitting out hours to multiple sessions, depending if/what happened while the wizard was busy.

 

[Tigris]

Never. There's a reason most people call levels 3-8 sweet spot. Levels 1-2 is survival mode, 9+ is superhero to demigod mode. In 3-8, characters become competent and heroic, but still not game breaking.

Its the same reason D&D 4e started their level 1 as the same power level as 3.5 level 3, and why D&D 5.5 has now level 3 as starting level.


Level 1 and 2 are survival / tutorial (and for many players also just not fun).

 

[TwoSix]

Charisma bonus doesn't compensate for the skill points available to a rogue. At 1st level the rogue can be at rank 4. With no charisma bonus for the rogue, it takes a cleric or sorcerer an 18 in charisma to even equal that. Being cross class and having very limited points meant that no points were being put into social skills for those two classes.

A smart player, who knows their character is going to be acting as party face, certainly does.

People don't make their characters in a vacuum; they discuss who's going to handle what role and plan for it. At least my groups do.

By level 4 the rogue is at +7, and maybe the cleric or sorcerer is at +5, and then only if he got lucky and started with a 19 instead of 18. The reality is that even clerics and sorcerers rarely started with even an 18 in charisma. They could not come close to the rogue for social skills without using magic.

A delta of a couple of points on a Diplomacy roll simply isn't that meaningful, ultimately. It's pretty darn rare in D&D play for the resolution of an adventure to turn on one skill check.

Does a rogue have some utility? Sure. But over the course of an adventure, you want a wizard or a sorcerer (maybe with a 1 level rogue dip) or a beguiler, with a focus on utility magic, over the pure rogue if you think the adventure is actually challenging and carries a non-zero risk of a TPK or narrative failure.

@Voadam since part of this concerns your response to me as well. You both mentioned buying items. Magic-mart could not be assumed and a whole lot of us didn't use it.

But yes, if you allowed unlimited downtime and had magic-mart, lots of scrolls and skill helping items made casters the way to go for skills as well as their primary function.

You don't need magic mart to load yourself up with a dozen invisibility and knock scrolls. That's baseline available out of the PHB.

You don't need unlimited downtime; you just need some. And yes, if the game features heavy amounts of urgent time pressure, than focusing on domination through item crafting isn't the smart play. But we can't assume that any more than we can assume no time pressure. I've had 3.5 games with a lot of urgency, and 3.5 games that were basically "choose-your-own adventure" sandboxes.

 

[TwoSix]

I still imagine an alternate universe where the synthesis we got out of this was deciding the more flexible caster party had the better gameplay experience, and designing from there. We basically lost the whole gameplay loop with skill challenges and later 5e style flexible spell preparation.

I spent most of 2007 advocating for a core of warblades and warmages, with unified spell slot progression across all classes, to be the core of the nascent 4e.

"Make everyone casters" was, to my mind, the single best advance of 4e. Casters are simply more fun to play.