D&D 5E (2014) D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room: a youtube channel
- Thread starter Bilbron Bafflestone
- Start date
Benjamin Olson
Hero
I think when someone is against "optimizing" they are actually against "optimizing for maximum combat damage in encounters with no distinctive features" and against worrying about being optimal. But fundamentally if you are someone who spends any time thinking about or being intentional about your character build in a game where characters are built with scarce resources you are some sort of optimizer, just not necessarily the one the term evokes for you.
I suspect it is easier to get people here to go watch two videos than to try to have an intelligent conversation in a Youtube comments section, even amongst people who have already seen those two videos.
jgsugden
Legend
You both missed a key point: Optimization is suboptimal and results in more PC death, not less.
What do I mean? Let me show you in an example.
Bob makes Uber-Kill, a PC that deals four times the normal damage of a 7th level melee PC. In all other respects, the PC is typical of a 7th level party, as are the offensive and defensive abilities of his allies.
Uber-kill and his allies have been adventuring, and Uber-Kill lives up to his name. He is taking down enemies with ease. He is the offensive star of the game. Nothing the DM has put before the party has been a challenge because Uber-Kill is a killing machine.
What does the DM do? The DM decides that to challenge the PCs, he needs to add tougher foes. So, he adds more powerful creatures to the encounters.
This means that the PCs are facing monsters that hit harder, are harder to hit, and use abilities with higher DCs.
While Uber-Kill deals a lot of damage, his defenses, and the abilities of his allies, is not enhanced. The combats are out of balance if Uber-Kill is prevented from doing his thing... and he is more likely to be prevented here and there because the saves are harder to make.
I've seen this story play out a lot - most often when I am a player sharing a game with an optimizer. The Optimizer keeps pushing harder and harder, and PCs start dying around him... and then he fails a save and dies. And that usually results in a tantrum.
And the funny thing is - when I tell players what I've observed, the optimizers always act like they wouldn't be the one throwing the tantrum. They can't see that the same driver that pushes you to optimize - competitiveness - is the same one that pushes people towards frustration and tantrums.
The game works best when PCs operate at the expected power levels. That was the design. It is the way. Suboptimized, but efficient.
What do I mean? Let me show you in an example.
Bob makes Uber-Kill, a PC that deals four times the normal damage of a 7th level melee PC. In all other respects, the PC is typical of a 7th level party, as are the offensive and defensive abilities of his allies.
Uber-kill and his allies have been adventuring, and Uber-Kill lives up to his name. He is taking down enemies with ease. He is the offensive star of the game. Nothing the DM has put before the party has been a challenge because Uber-Kill is a killing machine.
What does the DM do? The DM decides that to challenge the PCs, he needs to add tougher foes. So, he adds more powerful creatures to the encounters.
This means that the PCs are facing monsters that hit harder, are harder to hit, and use abilities with higher DCs.
While Uber-Kill deals a lot of damage, his defenses, and the abilities of his allies, is not enhanced. The combats are out of balance if Uber-Kill is prevented from doing his thing... and he is more likely to be prevented here and there because the saves are harder to make.
I've seen this story play out a lot - most often when I am a player sharing a game with an optimizer. The Optimizer keeps pushing harder and harder, and PCs start dying around him... and then he fails a save and dies. And that usually results in a tantrum.
And the funny thing is - when I tell players what I've observed, the optimizers always act like they wouldn't be the one throwing the tantrum. They can't see that the same driver that pushes you to optimize - competitiveness - is the same one that pushes people towards frustration and tantrums.
The game works best when PCs operate at the expected power levels. That was the design. It is the way. Suboptimized, but efficient.
Dragonsbane
Proud Grognard
What jgsugden said. Happened in my games. I even tried to not up the villains and monsters but the PCs became bored. Then a battle that challenged the optimized PCs almost killed the rest. Opto PCs barely scratched. These are players new to my table that I skipped restrictions on as they were new (allowed single level dips, allowed a strange race, allowed a UA class). I wont skip my house rules again.
As far as the video and my personal thoughts . . . while RP and powergaming are not exclusive, they certainly are not common friends. Some quotes from my tables over the last 30 years:
1) What race has CHA bonus? / Um, do you have a PC concept in mind? / Yes, an elf but if they don;t have a CHA bonus I will play whatever does. / Ojo
2) I think I will dip into Hexblade 1 level. / Why? / For the bonus stuff. / What patron do you have in mind? / Eh I won't really even mention it doesn't matter . . .
3) I have a great concept! A Fighter with this feat and that feat and... / Is the concept a RP one? I toned down GWF and Sharpshooter in the house rules... / OK I have another concept!
I'm sorry, nothing wrong with PGing (no hate here) but to say both commonly exist together is disingenuous, perhaps players can do both, but it isn't very common in my experience. If you have a PG build that you fit into RP, it isn't the same as a RP build that you find the correct classes / races for to fulfill your idea. My table is more about RP, and I have house rules that eliminate some of the most PGish builds and we have such a greater variety of PCs that builds are almost never chosen for mechanics but instead story / region / personal preference.
As far as the video and my personal thoughts . . . while RP and powergaming are not exclusive, they certainly are not common friends. Some quotes from my tables over the last 30 years:
1) What race has CHA bonus? / Um, do you have a PC concept in mind? / Yes, an elf but if they don;t have a CHA bonus I will play whatever does. / Ojo
2) I think I will dip into Hexblade 1 level. / Why? / For the bonus stuff. / What patron do you have in mind? / Eh I won't really even mention it doesn't matter . . .
3) I have a great concept! A Fighter with this feat and that feat and... / Is the concept a RP one? I toned down GWF and Sharpshooter in the house rules... / OK I have another concept!
I'm sorry, nothing wrong with PGing (no hate here) but to say both commonly exist together is disingenuous, perhaps players can do both, but it isn't very common in my experience. If you have a PG build that you fit into RP, it isn't the same as a RP build that you find the correct classes / races for to fulfill your idea. My table is more about RP, and I have house rules that eliminate some of the most PGish builds and we have such a greater variety of PCs that builds are almost never chosen for mechanics but instead story / region / personal preference.
Bilbron Bafflestone
Explorer
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Show Notes so you don’t have to watch if you don’t want to: Copy of Summon Greater Demon Deep Dive
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Show Notes so you don’t have to watch if you don’t want to: Copy of Summon Greater Demon Deep Dive
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Bilbron Bafflestone
Explorer
Thanks for the reply! We more or less agree, I think.
I honestly believe it has to do with the modern ideologies creeping into this game. These modern ideologies are not built around humble cooperation amongst equals pulling towards the same goal necessary to succeed in the field where facts and outcomes must be rationally dealth with. They are built around the power dynamics and heirarchies that are necessary to succeed in the social arena and are based on creating in-groups and out-groups and then accepting the in-group and demonizing the out-group regardless of the necessary roles they criticize. I tried to make this point in my example about putting food on the table and the ungratefulness of the newly fed who are always quick to criticize (in order to make gains in the social dynamic power heirarchy).
I honestly believe it has to do with the modern ideologies creeping into this game. These modern ideologies are not built around humble cooperation amongst equals pulling towards the same goal necessary to succeed in the field where facts and outcomes must be rationally dealth with. They are built around the power dynamics and heirarchies that are necessary to succeed in the social arena and are based on creating in-groups and out-groups and then accepting the in-group and demonizing the out-group regardless of the necessary roles they criticize. I tried to make this point in my example about putting food on the table and the ungratefulness of the newly fed who are always quick to criticize (in order to make gains in the social dynamic power heirarchy).
Bilbron Bafflestone
Explorer
That's why I don't like invoking the Stormwind Fallacy so off-handedly, as so many do. It deserves a bit of analysis. Ultimately, I don't care if I'm hobbled for party harmony, it's all in good fun.
Bilbron Bafflestone
Explorer
My thought was that separate threads for each video was a better format for fostering discussion, and that people are perfectly capable of ignoring uninteresting threads, so the fact that I was offering value at no cost made it acceptable. Clearly I underestimated people's distaste for "spam" and the decision has been taken out of my hands. C'est la vie!
Bilbron Bafflestone
Explorer
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Show Notes so you don’t have to watch if you don’t want to: Copy of Ratings of Tasha's Caster-Bump Items
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Bilbron Bafflestone
Explorer
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Races, Post-Tasha’s Ratings Scale Superior***** Good**** Average*** Poor** Inferior* Superior***** Races Aarakocra Dwarf - Mountain Goblin Satyr Tiefling - Winged Yuan-Ti Good**** Races Custom Race + Variant Human Dwarf - Hill, Duergar, Mark of Warding Gnome - Svirfneblin, Mark of Scribing Hal...
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