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D&D and the Implied Setting
- Thread starter Lucias
- Start date
Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
Choices are better than limitations. That's all people are saying Fenes.
Btw I apologize Fus, but even so why would you want such a thing even if it's just as a possibility. I mean it's possible I might be an evil demon on the net...but the reality is less likely. That's what I'm saying.
Btw I apologize Fus, but even so why would you want such a thing even if it's just as a possibility. I mean it's possible I might be an evil demon on the net...but the reality is less likely. That's what I'm saying.
Herobizkit
Adventurer
I gotta say, watching the exchange between Nightfall and Fenes, one thing becomes clearer about 3.x...
It puts the power entirely in the hands of the players.
Back in the 1e days, the DM was "The Man". What he said, went. Period. Sure, there was bickering, and a few people butted heads, and others didn't agree with the Way Things Were, so there were compromises made and everyone was happy, most of the time. D&D is a game, after all, and everyone should be having fun.
Then 2ed came, and game players more options. Options are good; it makes Joe Fighter and Fred Fighter a little different, in that one is now a Fighter with the Swashbuckler kit and the other is a Peasant Hero. Sure, they got a few more perks than your vanilla fighter, which was fine. And sure, you got XP for magic items *and* gold pieces from treasure, so advancement was MUCH faster once you came across a decent hoard of swag. Even with the advent of Skills and Powers, players became more free with the creative vision of their characters. But still... the power rested in the hands of the DM. The DM was responsible for doling out magical goodies, running the bad guys, and making sure the PC's sweated it out for that swag.
And then 3.x came along. Now, ALL the power is in the player's hands. Hundreds of prestige classes, gobs of new "core" classes, feats, and races to choose from. DM's are now unprepared to make accomodations for the player's desires, no matter how far out their requests seem. But that's ok, says 3.x, because we've already figured out how to control this new Player power with things like Challenge Ratings, Wealth by XP level, and by making sure that PC's fight their 13 fights a level. All you need to do as DM is run the fights, make sure the PC's aren't put up against anything too difficult, and if they are, make sure you give them the proper swag to defeat the creature. Oh, and make sure you give XP for "defeating" that 7th level Aristocrat NPC with a few successful Sense Motive and Diplomacy checks. And make sure you get XP for "defeating" that CR 4 trap, too. Still a game... but now, the rules have become softer, more forgiving. And as such, the DM must also become softer, more forgiving.
Choices are better than limitations, but too much of a good thing still spoils you.
It puts the power entirely in the hands of the players.
Back in the 1e days, the DM was "The Man". What he said, went. Period. Sure, there was bickering, and a few people butted heads, and others didn't agree with the Way Things Were, so there were compromises made and everyone was happy, most of the time. D&D is a game, after all, and everyone should be having fun.
Then 2ed came, and game players more options. Options are good; it makes Joe Fighter and Fred Fighter a little different, in that one is now a Fighter with the Swashbuckler kit and the other is a Peasant Hero. Sure, they got a few more perks than your vanilla fighter, which was fine. And sure, you got XP for magic items *and* gold pieces from treasure, so advancement was MUCH faster once you came across a decent hoard of swag. Even with the advent of Skills and Powers, players became more free with the creative vision of their characters. But still... the power rested in the hands of the DM. The DM was responsible for doling out magical goodies, running the bad guys, and making sure the PC's sweated it out for that swag.
And then 3.x came along. Now, ALL the power is in the player's hands. Hundreds of prestige classes, gobs of new "core" classes, feats, and races to choose from. DM's are now unprepared to make accomodations for the player's desires, no matter how far out their requests seem. But that's ok, says 3.x, because we've already figured out how to control this new Player power with things like Challenge Ratings, Wealth by XP level, and by making sure that PC's fight their 13 fights a level. All you need to do as DM is run the fights, make sure the PC's aren't put up against anything too difficult, and if they are, make sure you give them the proper swag to defeat the creature. Oh, and make sure you give XP for "defeating" that 7th level Aristocrat NPC with a few successful Sense Motive and Diplomacy checks. And make sure you get XP for "defeating" that CR 4 trap, too. Still a game... but now, the rules have become softer, more forgiving. And as such, the DM must also become softer, more forgiving.
Choices are better than limitations, but too much of a good thing still spoils you.
I disagree with the power shifting to the players. Essentially, it comes down to what each player and DM tolerates in a game, and what would cause them to give up on a game. And a DM, investing more time and effort in a campaign, has usually more clout.
Even if this was not the case, you can't really micromanage a DMs' campaign. If you managed to bully the flame master prestige class through that lets you cast unlimited fireballs, then the DM could more or less subtly render the PrC powerless by concentrating on fire-resistant foes, and combats where fire hurts you more than NPCs.
Even if this was not the case, you can't really micromanage a DMs' campaign. If you managed to bully the flame master prestige class through that lets you cast unlimited fireballs, then the DM could more or less subtly render the PrC powerless by concentrating on fire-resistant foes, and combats where fire hurts you more than NPCs.
FireLance
Legend
Nah, the DM still has the power to say, "Fine, if you're not going to play by my rules, I'm not going to run the game."Herobizkit said:
What's changed is that it's now easier for one of the players to say, "Fine, I'll do it instead." and actually run a decent game.
3e doesn't make great DMs any less great. However, if you're not a great DM, it does make it easier for you to run a fairly good, if formulaic, game.
Kae'Yoss
First Post
Herobizkit said:
Yeah right. I'll have to call that other player and apologize. He can come back and play his munchkinized powergamer char with a race that isn't supposed to exist like that IMC. Obviously it didn't have the right to forbid it.
I'll have to talk to my FOGS and shout at them to remove those stickers from my rulebooks.
You know, the "This book gives you the sovereign right to use all its contents in every D&D campaign you play in, no matter what the DM says" sticker.
The DMs word is still reality. The rules can't change that.
Of course, it doesn't mean that he's morally within his rights to enforce something everyone else hates. As some other poster recently wrote: "D&D is a game, after all, and everyone should be having fun."
Being softer and more forgiving doesn't mean losing all power. If it means being softer and more forgiving than that 40 year old guy living at his parent's basement who plays Gunnery Dungeon Master Hartman because he wants to be in complete control at least once, that's good
Choices are better than limitations, but too much of a good thing still spoils you.
Every game will need limitations, but 3es limitations make much more sense than those of older editions. They're not perfect, but no game is perfect. The rules as is have few limitations as to allow a multitude of different worlds. The DM will implement those limits he thinks his world needs. Decent DMs won't overdo it, but will explain it, and decent players will understand it.
It sure is better than "dwarves can't be wizards because I say so"
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