D&D 5E D&D "Core" Settings

Yeah, it all sounds positive until he talks about how all these different kinds of dwarves aren't "really" different kinds of dwarves. Unless "culture" bears some mechanical weight, cramming all the different dwarves into one erases their valuable gameplay distinctions.

If my dwarves in DL don't feel any different in play, in the dice-rolling and mechanics, from my dwarves in Greyhawk or FR....that's gonna kind of suck. That makes them "generic," and erases history that "doesn't belong." That's not really what I'm looking for.
Why do you need different mechanics to say the same thing? Why are minor gameplay distinctions "valuable" (I would love to hear examples from previous editions)? How would different mechanics make it less generic? It is a dwarf in a D&D game, after all.
 

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Why do you need different mechanics to say the same thing? Why are minor gameplay distinctions "valuable" (I would love to hear examples from previous editions)? How would different mechanics make it less generic? It is a dwarf in a D&D game, after all.

In DragonLance you have...

Hylar - "Noble" class of dwarves
Klar - Fighters, aggressive, highly religious
Daewar - "Noble", craftsman
Daergar - Murderous, tend towards insanity
Theiwar - Murderous, magic using
Neidar - Similiar to Hylar but don't live underground
Aghar - Immensely stupid

These aren't all just "Dwarves", they all have intrinsic traits that should be represented mechanically to some degree or another, and are distinct from "Just Dwarves". This is one of the issues I have with that designer, he doesn't seem terribly familiar with the material he's discussing quite often. It's one of the reasons why I'm deeply concerned about 5th edition and its settings, this designer's articles pretty frequently read like he hasn't played much D&D.
 


In DragonLance you have...

Hylar - "Noble" class of dwarves
Klar - Fighters, aggressive, highly religious
Daewar - "Noble", craftsman
Daergar - Murderous, tend towards insanity
Theiwar - Murderous, magic using
Neidar - Similiar to Hylar but don't live underground
Aghar - Immensely stupid

These aren't all just "Dwarves", they all have intrinsic traits that should be represented mechanically to some degree or another, and are distinct from "Just Dwarves".
How were they represented in 1e-3e?
 

GX.Sigma said:
Why do you need different mechanics to say the same thing? Why are minor gameplay distinctions "valuable" (I would love to hear examples from previous editions)? How would different mechanics make it less generic? It is a dwarf in a D&D game, after all.

The reason is because they're not *actually* the same thing. Their stories are different stories. And if you want to tell different stories in D&D, that's something I think the game should support.

[sblock=discussion of generic rules vs. specific rules]
There's a continuum of abstraction, right? At one end of the spectrum you've got something very broad and flexible -- lets posit some rule like this:

CHARACTER RACE
Dwarf, elf, halfling, wookie, ewok, jedi, genetic mutant, hawkman, sentient robot, cheese golem...In this game, you can create any kind of character your DM allows! All you need to do is pick one of the six ability scores to gain a +2 bonus to, and pick two first-level spells as things your race can do as daily abilities. If you want to make a charming fey-related high elf, for instance, you can choose Charisma to gain a +2 bonus, and pick Enchantment spells like Charm Person and Sleep, and you'll have a charismatic, magical creature in no time! Meanwhile, if you want to be a dwarf, you might choose +2 Con, and gain spells like Magic Weapon and Magic Stone.​

That's what I would call a "generic" rule. It's broad and flexible and makes no real assumptions about the specific story you'll be telling with that rule. That is both a strength of the rule (it's SUPER flexible!), but also a weakness (it doesn't give anyone who wants to "just sit down and play" anything to go with, and it doesn't tell you anything about the kinds of races might exist in a particular game).

An equivalent, specific, flavorful rule would be something like this:

CHARACTER RACE
In this world, there are many creatures, but only three with any adventurers to speak of: Elf, Dwarf, and Human. Pick one as your character race. As an Elf, you get +2 Dex, and the "Enchanting Fey" quality which gives you the ability to cast Charm Person and Sleep. As a Dwarf, you gain +2 Con, and the "Hardy Stoneworker" quality, which gives you advantage on CON saves and lets you make masterwork items out of stone. As a Human, you gain +2 Cha, and the "Seize Destiny" quality, which gives you a bonus on saving throws and a bonus point of Inspiration.​

This is a specific rule that implies a specific world where, for instance, gnomes and halflings and robots and genetic mutants and jedi aren't acceptable PC's, and all elves are enchanting, and all humans have a thing for destiny. It's richly flavorful, but very specific -- if you want to be a "nature elf," or a barbarian dwarf, this rule won't support you. This is true even though it might be just as easy to modify as the rule above. It gives a newbie a clear sense of the world (if they see a halfling adventurer, it's going to be a thing of note!), and of their place in it (they know other dwarves become adventurers on occasion). The abilities aren't necessarily easily interchangable -- is CON more valuable in the game than CHA to make up for the dwarf's lackluster racial abilities? If a DM changes this, what's going to happen?

So this is the trade-off. At one end, very broad and generic and flexible. At the other, very specific and unique and particular.
[/sblock]

So, I'm a big fan of rules that support the story you're telling -- specific rules that are evocative of a specific context for your specific character.

Wyatt's article proposes that the Neidar and the Klar from Dragonlance and the gold dwarves of FR should all just be "hill dwarves," leaving the difference between them to "culture." As long as culture is just flavor text, fluff, and description without any real impact on the mechanics or the gameplay, then the experience of playing a Neidar and a Klar and a gold dwarf would be basically the same. Maybe you'd swap out a few proper nouns, but basically, you'd be the same kind of character.

But the differences are real.

[sblock=dwarf differences]
I don't know much about DL, and I'm not the world's biggest FR fan, but I know this:

  • The Neidar are dwarven wanderers, ousted from their mountain homes and forced to live above ground. They are accepting of other folks. They farm, raise crops, and are good woodworkers.
  • The Klar are wild dwarves haunted by divine madness, who farm acid-spewing, tunneling, luminous worms. They are undisciplined, but fierce.
  • Gold dwarves are traders, warriors, and hunters of aberrations in the depths. They're arrogant, materialistic, raise lizards, and aren't afraid of arcane magic.

Those are all very different stories. If the rules are to support the stories that we're telling with these different kinds of dwarves, we need to have at least slightly different rules to support these stories. For ex:

  • Neidar could have a CHA bonus due to their open nature, and might favor druids as well as fighters and clerics, getting a bonus to wood-crafts in addition to stone and metal. They might get a bonus when fighting with other dwarves thanks to the fractious history of the race. They probably would not see in the dark, since they're primarily above-ground.
  • Klar would also not see in the dark, thanks to their worm-lamps. Their madness might give them a WIS penalty, their skill with the worms might give them a bonus to handling animals or vermin. Their madness might make them well-suited to the Barbarian class, and they may have an acid theme to their attacks or resistances, thanks to their familiarity with their worms. Certainly, they should know how to take down an earth elemental!
  • Gold dwarves might get bonuses to fighting Aberrations. They might also get a CHA bonus (thanks to their confident arrogance and skill at trading), or an INT bonus (again, trading, and also their comfort with arcane magic). They can handle animals decently, and they should be able to appraise the value of MANY kinds of crafts, not just stone and metal -- they're fans of the finer things in life. Perhaps they have higher wealth than other PC's, better contacts.
[/sblock]

These differences are "cultural," but they're important to the stories. If the rules are to support the stories, those differences are important to the rules, too. It's not just good enough to give all these kinds of characters the same exact mechanics and swap out a few proper nouns, not if you want to encourage people to feel like these differences are real to the characters and actually matter.

Where 5e's modularity comes in handy for this is that you can encapsulate those qualities in a given rules fob (subrace, or, maybe, "culture"), and swap that out for an equivalent fob (hill dwarf for mountain dwarf, or Neidar for Gold Dwarf).

In previous e's culture was largely synonymous with character race/subrace. Heck, I'm not sure if you take away "culture" that there's a lot of difference between a hill dwarf and a mountain dwarf. Or a dwarf and a gnome and a halfling. Or a dwarf and a particularly stout human. Or a dwarf and an elf. Or a dwarf and a sentient robot or genetic mutant or jedi. At a high enough level, it's all just a set of modifiers for your class and maybe a special power or two. What matters is what distinction you want to draw in the rules, and I like a distinction that's drawn at the level of the story, which means that my wealthy, materialistic gold dwarf and my worm-farming Klar probably should be using different mechanics to represent that.
 

And that's the way I want it. Because sometimes, I'm not in the mood to homebrew from scratch. Sometimes I want to play /D&D/ -- not Greyhawk, not Forgotten Realms, and not any other of the deep-detail settings, but just /D&D/. When I have my players roll up an elf I want them to understand that the conflict between Corellon and Gruumsh is part of their racial backstory, to draw on as they see fit. I want them to stumble across the Deck of Many Things, spontaneously build a fortress, then see their hapless rogue get carried off by a lesser Death (what the hell is a lesser Death?).

I think its even "simpler" than that.

Imagine you gave a new player a set of core rules and ask him to make a character. He decides (for whatever reason) to play a dwarf. Then he asks you a simple question: "What are dwarves like?"

How do you answer?

The "Generic" Answer would be "They are hardy, resistant to poison, good at crafting stuff, and make good fighters" (the stuff you can pull out of the stat block). Useful, but really enough to go off of as a character. A stat block does not a character make.

The "traditional" answer would give more: love gold and drinking, wear beards, scottish accents, grumpy and dour, hate orcs, dislike elves and use axes and hammers. The distilled essence of dwarfdom, but not always true (for example, Dark Sun dwarves and Eberron dwarves don't abide all these traits). Yet the classic dwarf does. This is what I'd prefer; a default assumption that the DM can use, change, or ignore.

The "specific world" answer, where D&D had a default setting like Nerath, Oerth and Faerun, would talk about Moradin, gold dwarves, the Great Rift, dwur, and so on in the PHB write up. This is kinda what 3e/4e did, where you have a default set of proper nouns you can swap out but is much closer tied to one of the worlds in the D&D quiver. It also seems to be the opposite of what they are going for.

The "multiple choice" option KM is advocating would mean you explain to them they could be like Tolkien dwarves, Eberron dwarves, Gully dwarves, Athaisan dwarves, or anything else the player/DM dream up. The problem is, at best their eyes are going to glaze over an the nuances of different dwarves, or at worst you'll have a beardless dwarven gladiator roaming around Faerun. While an experienced player can move and shift parts, a novice needs a little more structure, lest he pick and choose "at random" and create a truly Frankenstein world of Kender, warforged, muls, star elves, and half-vistani all living in the same kingdom as normal.

So I'm advocating a "traditional" answer with a big bold block text (size 72 font) that says "A DM might change this to fit his vision, don't treat anything as gospel until the DM says otherwise".
 

I'm in total agreement. But just because it's not generic doesn't mean it's one specific thing. D&D has never been one thing, it's always been a fantasy mashup.

I don't think it is appropriate to continue calling D&D a fantasy mashup. It's 40 years old, and its target audience no longer remembers most of the things it was originally mashing. D&D is its own genre, now. Treating it as a cohesive whole is a logical development.

Why would you expect homebrewing to have to excise those things? Most homebrews probably either use those things, or simply ignore them.

I'm confused. How is that not a direct sentence-to-sentence contradiction?

Homebrewing "from scratch" is just playing any D&D game that doesn't explicitly use a pre-published setting. It's not some exhaustive accounting process.

That is just completely contrary to my own experience. I have spent years of my life explaining to various and sundry groups of players why they can't use things that are printed in D&D books because of my homebrew rules and lore. I have frequently not realized before they are called to my attention in a character build or backstory that these things would not be compatible. D&D carries a lot of baggage. Forty years of it, in fact.

The thing is that none of these things are "D&D." They're just specific bits within the broader D&D umbrella.

Again, how is that not a sentence-to-sentence contradiction?

Given that comment, I don't think you understand my position. Which seems weird to me, because I certainly feel like I've spent a lot of word count on these boards on this (like I said upthread, it's kind of a thing for me).

I'm pretty sure I understand you perfectly. I just think your position is less an unassailable fortress.

But lets be clear: saying that D&D should not have a specific Defaultsylvania setting is not the same as saying that D&D should be "generic" and that the bits of history "don't belong."

I'm rather saying that the bits of history aren't mutually exclsuive, and should ALL be used, rather than picking one "favorite" and acting like it is some super special snowflake that needs to be crammed into everything published for the next 5 years as the "expected default."

That isn't clear. First of all, I do not understand your protest against mutual exclusivity, as you seem to be clearly in favor of mutual exclusivity in mountain dwarf lore and mechanics. Second, as we are both advocating using "ALL" of the "bits of history," that isn't a valuable description of either of our positions.

I understand you to believe that all the bits of history -- setting-specific and non -- should keep their own counsel, not interfering with settings to which they are not applicable. Exactly where you think the non-setting-specific bits should be published escapes me, as your approach seems to limit acceptable options.

I believe all the non-setting-specific bits of history should be combined into a unified proto-setting that informs all of the game's full settings, and that all the setting-specific bits of history should remain setting specific, where they do not contradict the proto-setting.

I think what I really want can be summed up like this: metaphorically speaking, the D&D core rules ought to ask a set of questions, and those questions ought to be answered by every D&D campaign setting. In the dwarf example, the question is, "Why are mountain dwarves like this?" and the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and Eberron will each have their own unique answer, as will any homebrew D&D setting.

That set of questions is the Dungeons & Dragons proto-setting.

If my dwarves in DL don't feel any different in play, in the dice-rolling and mechanics, from my dwarves in Greyhawk or FR....that's gonna kind of suck. That makes them "generic," and erases history that "doesn't belong." That's not really what I'm looking for.

This is admittedly a bit reductionist, but by that logic history is lost every time a new edition is released. I think that's reactionary. Mechanics and lore change all the time. They even change within editions. We learned more about AD&D2 dwarves with the release of the Complete Book of Dwarves, and it was all "erased" by the D&D3 PHB, only for it to be further altered in Races of Stone. There is no one set of historical mechanics and lore for any kind of dwarf. If D&D5 aligns mountain dwarves across all settings it won't really be anything new; just more organized than usual.
 

I think its even "simpler" than that.

Imagine you gave a new player a set of core rules and ask him to make a character. He decides (for whatever reason) to play a dwarf. Then he asks you a simple question: "What are dwarves like?"

How do you answer?

The "Generic" Answer would be "They are hardy, resistant to poison, good at crafting stuff, and make good fighters" (the stuff you can pull out of the stat block). Useful, but really enough to go off of as a character. A stat block does not a character make.

The "traditional" answer would give more: love gold and drinking, wear beards, scottish accents, grumpy and dour, hate orcs, dislike elves and use axes and hammers. The distilled essence of dwarfdom, but not always true (for example, Dark Sun dwarves and Eberron dwarves don't abide all these traits). Yet the classic dwarf does. This is what I'd prefer; a default assumption that the DM can use, change, or ignore.

The "specific world" answer, where D&D had a default setting like Nerath, Oerth and Faerun, would talk about Moradin, gold dwarves, the Great Rift, dwur, and so on in the PHB write up. This is kinda what 3e/4e did, where you have a default set of proper nouns you can swap out but is much closer tied to one of the worlds in the D&D quiver. It also seems to be the opposite of what they are going for.

The "multiple choice" option KM is advocating would mean you explain to them they could be like Tolkien dwarves, Eberron dwarves, Gully dwarves, Athaisan dwarves, or anything else the player/DM dream up. The problem is, at best their eyes are going to glaze over an the nuances of different dwarves, or at worst you'll have a beardless dwarven gladiator roaming around Faerun. While an experienced player can move and shift parts, a novice needs a little more structure, lest he pick and choose "at random" and create a truly Frankenstein world of Kender, warforged, muls, star elves, and half-vistani all living in the same kingdom as normal.

So I'm advocating a "traditional" answer with a big bold block text (size 72 font) that says "A DM might change this to fit his vision, don't treat anything as gospel until the DM says otherwise".

What I'm seeing KM advocate is the DM would look in a DM book for an answer to the player's question and see references to dwarves from Tolkien, Eberron, Dark Sun, and what-have-you. The DM would recognise that there could be potentially many answers to the player's question and that the answer affects how dwarves interact with the world.. The DM then picks the dwarf arch-type best suited for his world and tells the player about that one.

The player gets the answer to the original question, the DM makes a choice that informs his campaign, and play goes on.
 

What I'm seeing KM advocate is the DM would look in a DM book for an answer to the player's question and see references to dwarves from Tolkien, Eberron, Dark Sun, and what-have-you. The DM would recognise that there could be potentially many answers to the player's question and that the answer affects how dwarves interact with the world.. The DM then picks the dwarf arch-type best suited for his world and tells the player about that one.

The player gets the answer to the original question, the DM makes a choice that informs his campaign, and play goes on.

Basically, yep, this. There is no generic answer. There is only ever specific answers. "They are hardy, resistant to poison, good at crafting stuff, and make good fighters" doesn't apply to every dwarf (the Klar, for instance, specifically make very undisciplined fighters -- they're better as barbarians. And the poison resistance can go entire campaigns without ever coming up, making it a pretty useless defining feature).

Logistically, in practice, in terms of "books have a limited amount of space" this might look like picking one particular archetype to present up-front, while making it clear that it's a specific archetype that you choose to use, not an assumed archetype you choose to not use.

What's a dwarf? Well, maybe the PH presents the Neidar as one kind of dwarf, calling it out as specific and particular (referencing the dwarf-wars and the exile status of the clan and maybe even a few proper nouns). It embraces its particularism and it presents the Neidar without worrying about all those other dwarves that it's not really modeling, without trying to say that gold dwarves and hill dwarves are all the same thing. It just says, "There are lots of dwarves. Here's one particular kind of dwarf that's like this. If you don't have anything else in mind, go ahead and use this, lots of folks like it."

DMZ2112 said:
I don't think it is appropriate to continue calling D&D a fantasy mashup. It's 40 years old, and its target audience no longer remembers most of the things it was originally mashing. D&D is its own genre, now. Treating it as a cohesive whole is a logical development.

It never STOPPED being a mashup. OD&D mashed up a few specific stories, and as the game grew, it mashed up more and more, from sci-fi to film noir, from Babylonian myth to anime. It was never meant to be a cohesive whole, or an internally consistent genre with a specific identifiable and particular "feel," which is part of why every attempt to make it fit someone's mold for it has been quixotic at best.

DMZ2112 said:
Exactly where you think the non-setting-specific bits should be published escapes me, as your approach seems to limit acceptable options.

Think of it this way: there is no such thing as non-setting-specfic.

That armored knight on the horse with his sword and shield? That's specific.

That wizard in the tower pouring over forgotten tomes? That's specific.

That thief skulking through the city streets looking for a mark? That's specific.

The idea that these are somehow more generic or broader than other fantasy archetypes isn't true. They may be more POPULAR than other fantasy archetypes, but just because Beiber moves more singles than other singers doesn't make his music the "default music." Their popularity just means that their specific stories should probably be supported out the gate. Find the most awesome armored mounted sword-and-board knight in D&D, and use THAT as a possible expression for the archetype, without trying to pretend that every mounted knight in D&D needs to be this specific kind of mounted knight.

DMZ2112 said:
I have spent years of my life explaining to various and sundry groups of players why they can't use things that are printed in D&D books because of my homebrew rules and lore. I have frequently not realized before they are called to my attention in a character build or backstory that these things would not be compatible.

Right. So, wouldn't it be great if D&D instead told players to not expect a default, and to instead come to every new table prepared to see what specific kind of setting this is? Rather than coming to you table with a preconceived notion of what, say, D&D dwarves have to be like (which you then have to contradict), they could just ask you what dwarves are like in this world, and build their characters with that in mind! It'd be pretty awesome, then, if D&D books abandoned this quixotic idea of a default entirely, and instead embraced the specificity that has really been bubbling under the surface this entire time, wouldn't it?

I've got an idea about how that might be done...B-)
 

It never STOPPED being a mashup.

After 40 years, it is okay to acknowledge that it might have had a few original thoughts.

Logistically, in practice, in terms of "books have a limited amount of space" this might look like picking one particular archetype to present up-front, while making it clear that it's a specific archetype that you choose to use, not an assumed archetype you choose to not use.


...Imma call you "Kamikaze Microtome" from now on, 'cause bro, you be splittin' them hairs fiiine.
 

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