My wife is a High School teacher as well as a gamer. She has had students interested in joining our group in the past, but the rule was always not until they graduated to avoid just such complicated issues as accusation of impropriety in our choice of game, favoritism, or any number of the crackpot mom's that live here in the Bible Belt. Such is life. No sense risking too much over a game, in my opinion.
D&D has threatened my job!
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Hunter Simon
First Post
Harlock said:
Well, they're either crackpots, or they're people who have different beliefs from you. Remember that thing called "tolerance"? If we only tolerate people who happen to be like us, we aren't being tolerant. Everyone deserves respect and dignity--even "crackpots" from the Bible belt.
[Steps down off soap box.]
Alan Shutko
Explorer
I find it sad that society has become so paranoid (or perhaps just so sensationalistic) that the best advice for a teacher is to have as little contact with his students as possible. And that the few problems are publicized so much that anyone who wants to spend any time with children (who often make the best teachers) are immediately under suspicion. The history of education shows that the various fads that keep cycling (phonics vs. whole word, open plan, charter schools) have essentially the same chances of success, and the only way to truly improve schools is to find teachers who can engage and excite their pupils. But if one does so, he or she is more likely to be doubted.
At least those people who fall into teaching because they have control complexes or are unsuitable for any other career are safe.
It's true, there are dangers... but I can't help feeling that the cost is too high.
(Disclaimer: I don't have children.)
At least those people who fall into teaching because they have control complexes or are unsuitable for any other career are safe.
It's true, there are dangers... but I can't help feeling that the cost is too high.
(Disclaimer: I don't have children.)
Steel_Wind
Legend
Hunter Simon said:
Those who espouse intolerance in the guise of religion (or even genuinely in pursuit of same) are not deserving of my respect - and will not get it.
Wikid Klown
First Post
Ok, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet (I haven't read every post), but one of my players, his mom and older brother are gamers, and they fought the school corporation on the matter. They had a list of about 2 pages of things that RPG's like DnD had to do with academics (math, cartography, ect...). I'm not sure if it would work, but it's worth a shot? Even still, you should get the parents concent, meet with the parents, become "friends" if you will, gain their trust (but that depends on how big 1/3 of the group is, my groups are me and 3 other people at most). I doubt the libraries will allow it (they won't here, and I'm in a small town in Indiana), but anything's worth a shot. I also agree with the main post, keeping teens (I'm one by the way) away from the crap like that, the stuff our parents don't want us doin....I mean, come on. If I were a parent, I'd be happy somebody would be keepin my kid outta trouble, 
hell I'd encourage it. I think it's fun, so do a lot of other people...(that and my math grades have gone up since I've started playing). I've spoke what I will, I'm out.
hell I'd encourage it. I think it's fun, so do a lot of other people...(that and my math grades have gone up since I've started playing). I've spoke what I will, I'm out.
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d20fool
First Post
Thank you for your support!
What a wealth of responses! I thank the gaming community for their support in this matter, five pages is quite a bit. There are no new developments, which is good. No news is good news, so the saying goes.
There has been A LOT of talk about doing some sort of gaming group. I have to nix that one. If I'm being accused of "luring" students into D&D, I don't think starting a gaming club will help. In fact I think it would hurt
Moreover, I ruled out that idea a long time ago. I play D&D to get away, playing it in my classroom or the school library would definately not be getting away.
There seems to be some confusion, I am not inviting "my students" to play. I teach elementary, these are high school kids. Also, the games don't actually happen at my house, but in a converted second garage at my mother's house (formerly a poker room.) This is probably worse than playing at my house, as it is so very secluded. It is also PERFECT for gaming and I refuse to give it up. I've played in public places and except for conventions I hate it, .
I agree that not discussing matters directly with parents may have been bad policy and may have avoided this mess. An oversight on my part and irresponsible, yes.
I also agree that the smartest thing is to disallow any minors from my game. It is the simplest move that solves all problems. In fact, since the other kid's mom (the lead whisperer in the whisper campaign) has gone pyscho, there is one regular player who is a minor.
But I have to look at that kid and ask, "Does he or does he not deserve to play?" My gut says yes. I'm not doing anything wrong, I'm providing a social, intellectually stimulating and creative activity. I have as much right to teach the game to a younger generation as anyone, and he has the right to play it. Mostly, I'm Irish and refuse to give up or live in fear of yet another group of parents who think they can run the town with a few phone calls. So this is my plan:
Permission slips with long exposition about what D&D is and what we are doing, along with a copy of my rules (which were already in place.) This is crafted to show that D&D is a valuable pasttime and that I have a structured environment. I've included the text below, and would appreciate some pointers and feedback.
I will contact my union rep, GAMA, the Escapist and CAR-PGA for advice and to feel out my support level. I thank the legal contributors to this thread for their contributions (even if I am not taking their advice.)
Here is the permission form
What is this permission slip about?
Your child has asked to play Dungeons and Dragons with my gaming group. Whenever a minor asks to play, I require a permission slip from his or her parents so that parents are aware and give consent to their children’s activities.
My gaming group is completely transparent, if you wish to observe us play at any time, or arrange to record a session via audio or videotape, you are most welcome to do so. I have been playing Dungeons and Dragons for over 20 years and it is definitely my hobby. Players range in age from 10 to over 50, but my group varies from high school upperclassmen to early thirties. Many may consider this age spread odd, but it is very common for many hobbies, such as watching NASCAR, playing golf, or playing fantasy football. Many of my game seesions are also sanctioned by the RPGA, the Role Playing Gamers Association.
I hold games in a converted garage room that used to be used as a poker room by it’s former owner. This is at my mother’s house at 555 5th St and the phone number is 885-5555 there. My phone number is 890-5555 and my e-mail is jmccarty@clinton.k12.mo.us if you have any questions.
About Dungeons and Dragons
Dungeons and Dragons is an exciting, intellectually stimulating game that has been in constant print for 30 years now. The game evolved out of historical wargames, a pursuit begun by writer H.G.Wells. It has a lot of influence from Oxford professor J.R.R. Tolkien of Lord of the Rings fame and world-famous Christian C. S. Lewis, writer of the Chronicles of Narnia.
The game consists of a cooperative storytelling between the players and the Dungeon Master, who serves as the game’s referee. At no time do players physically try to accomplish what their characters or doing, they simply roll dice to determine results of their efforts. It is a social, creative activity that players enjoy. The atmosphere around a gaming table is very much like a game of poker but without the gambling.
Sadly, there is a considerable amount of misinformation about Dungeons and Dragons out there. Like most bad rumors and urban legends, these have waned without any proof to back them up. If you have individual concerns please feel free to contact me. Also, a FAQ can be found online here: http://members.aol.com/waltonwj/faq_myths.htm
I will say that the game is very academic and intellectual as well as creative. The rule books are written on a high reading level, there is a considerable amount of mathematics to master and sessions allows a supportive environment for even the meekest individual to express themselves freely. Research has shown gaming to help people work through emotional issues, prevent suicidal behavior (contrary to myth) and that gamers are less likely than their peers to commit crimes and are more likely to get a college education. I have personally played with a doctorate working on cancer research, many teachers and graduate students, and even a retired Baptist minister. As a parent, I hope that my children take an interest in Dungeons and Dragons when they are older. I would rather see them playing D&D than any of the five dozen ways minors can get into trouble these days.
Permission
I __________________________(print name) give my permission to my child/ward __________________ (print child’s name) to play Dungeons and Dragons.
Signed________________________________________Date:___________________________
My rules for my gaming group are on the reverse side.
Rules for the Room
Ø Ø Please moderate your language. An occasional colorful metaphor is one thing, but I do not tolerate any name calling, racist or bigoted language.
Ø Ø You can use the microwave and refrigerator as you wish, just clean up your mess. No food is provided, you must bring your own.
Ø Ø No drugs, alcohol, tobacco, or weapons are allowed, if that wasn’t obvious already.
Rules for Playing
Ø The object is to have fun. Make sure you are playing in a style and manner that is fun for you and for others.
Ø Keep the letter and the spirit of the rules. No rules lawyers, no game weasels, and no min/maxing munchkins! I’ve booted them before and I’ll boot them again.
Ø Role-playing is expected. Be sure to talk in character, refer to characters instead of players, and describe your actions above “I make a roll.” This is not a video game.
Ø Character conflict is OK, character combat is not. Settle character disputes without sword or spell.
Ø Play seriously, have fun. Do both at the same time.
Rules for Entering the House
Ø This is my MOTHER’S house, please act accordingly. You can use the potty or get a drink of water.
Ø Be sure to look presentable. Would you want a dirty stranger entering your home and using the bathroom?
Ø Be polite, make eye contact and don’t mumble
Ø Seat down, wash your hands, no pee on the seat, you know the drill.
This version has phone numbers and addresses altered
What a wealth of responses! I thank the gaming community for their support in this matter, five pages is quite a bit. There are no new developments, which is good. No news is good news, so the saying goes.
There has been A LOT of talk about doing some sort of gaming group. I have to nix that one. If I'm being accused of "luring" students into D&D, I don't think starting a gaming club will help. In fact I think it would hurt
Moreover, I ruled out that idea a long time ago. I play D&D to get away, playing it in my classroom or the school library would definately not be getting away.
There seems to be some confusion, I am not inviting "my students" to play. I teach elementary, these are high school kids. Also, the games don't actually happen at my house, but in a converted second garage at my mother's house (formerly a poker room.) This is probably worse than playing at my house, as it is so very secluded. It is also PERFECT for gaming and I refuse to give it up. I've played in public places and except for conventions I hate it, .
I agree that not discussing matters directly with parents may have been bad policy and may have avoided this mess. An oversight on my part and irresponsible, yes.
I also agree that the smartest thing is to disallow any minors from my game. It is the simplest move that solves all problems. In fact, since the other kid's mom (the lead whisperer in the whisper campaign) has gone pyscho, there is one regular player who is a minor.
But I have to look at that kid and ask, "Does he or does he not deserve to play?" My gut says yes. I'm not doing anything wrong, I'm providing a social, intellectually stimulating and creative activity. I have as much right to teach the game to a younger generation as anyone, and he has the right to play it. Mostly, I'm Irish and refuse to give up or live in fear of yet another group of parents who think they can run the town with a few phone calls. So this is my plan:
Permission slips with long exposition about what D&D is and what we are doing, along with a copy of my rules (which were already in place.) This is crafted to show that D&D is a valuable pasttime and that I have a structured environment. I've included the text below, and would appreciate some pointers and feedback.
I will contact my union rep, GAMA, the Escapist and CAR-PGA for advice and to feel out my support level. I thank the legal contributors to this thread for their contributions (even if I am not taking their advice.)
Here is the permission form
What is this permission slip about?
Your child has asked to play Dungeons and Dragons with my gaming group. Whenever a minor asks to play, I require a permission slip from his or her parents so that parents are aware and give consent to their children’s activities.
My gaming group is completely transparent, if you wish to observe us play at any time, or arrange to record a session via audio or videotape, you are most welcome to do so. I have been playing Dungeons and Dragons for over 20 years and it is definitely my hobby. Players range in age from 10 to over 50, but my group varies from high school upperclassmen to early thirties. Many may consider this age spread odd, but it is very common for many hobbies, such as watching NASCAR, playing golf, or playing fantasy football. Many of my game seesions are also sanctioned by the RPGA, the Role Playing Gamers Association.
I hold games in a converted garage room that used to be used as a poker room by it’s former owner. This is at my mother’s house at 555 5th St and the phone number is 885-5555 there. My phone number is 890-5555 and my e-mail is jmccarty@clinton.k12.mo.us if you have any questions.
About Dungeons and Dragons
Dungeons and Dragons is an exciting, intellectually stimulating game that has been in constant print for 30 years now. The game evolved out of historical wargames, a pursuit begun by writer H.G.Wells. It has a lot of influence from Oxford professor J.R.R. Tolkien of Lord of the Rings fame and world-famous Christian C. S. Lewis, writer of the Chronicles of Narnia.
The game consists of a cooperative storytelling between the players and the Dungeon Master, who serves as the game’s referee. At no time do players physically try to accomplish what their characters or doing, they simply roll dice to determine results of their efforts. It is a social, creative activity that players enjoy. The atmosphere around a gaming table is very much like a game of poker but without the gambling.
Sadly, there is a considerable amount of misinformation about Dungeons and Dragons out there. Like most bad rumors and urban legends, these have waned without any proof to back them up. If you have individual concerns please feel free to contact me. Also, a FAQ can be found online here: http://members.aol.com/waltonwj/faq_myths.htm
I will say that the game is very academic and intellectual as well as creative. The rule books are written on a high reading level, there is a considerable amount of mathematics to master and sessions allows a supportive environment for even the meekest individual to express themselves freely. Research has shown gaming to help people work through emotional issues, prevent suicidal behavior (contrary to myth) and that gamers are less likely than their peers to commit crimes and are more likely to get a college education. I have personally played with a doctorate working on cancer research, many teachers and graduate students, and even a retired Baptist minister. As a parent, I hope that my children take an interest in Dungeons and Dragons when they are older. I would rather see them playing D&D than any of the five dozen ways minors can get into trouble these days.
Permission
I __________________________(print name) give my permission to my child/ward __________________ (print child’s name) to play Dungeons and Dragons.
Signed________________________________________Date:___________________________
My rules for my gaming group are on the reverse side.
Rules for the Room
Ø Ø Please moderate your language. An occasional colorful metaphor is one thing, but I do not tolerate any name calling, racist or bigoted language.
Ø Ø You can use the microwave and refrigerator as you wish, just clean up your mess. No food is provided, you must bring your own.
Ø Ø No drugs, alcohol, tobacco, or weapons are allowed, if that wasn’t obvious already.
Rules for Playing
Ø The object is to have fun. Make sure you are playing in a style and manner that is fun for you and for others.
Ø Keep the letter and the spirit of the rules. No rules lawyers, no game weasels, and no min/maxing munchkins! I’ve booted them before and I’ll boot them again.
Ø Role-playing is expected. Be sure to talk in character, refer to characters instead of players, and describe your actions above “I make a roll.” This is not a video game.
Ø Character conflict is OK, character combat is not. Settle character disputes without sword or spell.
Ø Play seriously, have fun. Do both at the same time.
Rules for Entering the House
Ø This is my MOTHER’S house, please act accordingly. You can use the potty or get a drink of water.
Ø Be sure to look presentable. Would you want a dirty stranger entering your home and using the bathroom?
Ø Be polite, make eye contact and don’t mumble
Ø Seat down, wash your hands, no pee on the seat, you know the drill.
This version has phone numbers and addresses altered
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I'm a parent of a 3 year old and I'm in training to become a police officer.
I know that some people may think that this is an issue of "playing D&D with minors" but it goes beyond that. I peronally think that if you're inviting students over to play chess you would be plagued with the same suspicion. It boils down to perception, and in this case, it's what the community perceives that matters here.
Drop the kids out of your game and stick with those of closer to your own age. You have a responsibility to your job which, although may be a burden at times, cannot be mixed with your hobby.
The best way not to drown is to not be in the water to begin with.
Good luck, I hope this works out for you in the end.
I know that some people may think that this is an issue of "playing D&D with minors" but it goes beyond that. I peronally think that if you're inviting students over to play chess you would be plagued with the same suspicion. It boils down to perception, and in this case, it's what the community perceives that matters here.
Drop the kids out of your game and stick with those of closer to your own age. You have a responsibility to your job which, although may be a burden at times, cannot be mixed with your hobby.
The best way not to drown is to not be in the water to begin with.
Good luck, I hope this works out for you in the end.
Some more spare change from the legal community...
1) If you look back at the past couple of years, you'll see that even college professors and coaches have lost or nearly lost their jobs because of fraternizing with students. You are, economically speaking, more fungible than a college level teacher or coach. And remember, rationality is in short ration these days when it comes to kids & teachers. In the past couple of years, we have even had a teacher forced to resign because she gave an "F" to students she caught cheating because "concerned parents" felt she had irreperably damaged their kids' self-esteem.
2) I STRONGLY reiterate my urging you game in a public place. I know-there are plenty of hobbies out there in which the very young and adults (even teachers) freely intermingle- radio control vehicles & robots, model trains, martial arts classes, target shooting, etc.- all without major parental concern. But most of them do not have a past history of religious based/parental villification, unjust though it is. Other hobbies that had that kind of parental attack took years to recover, like the comic book industry in the 1950's-several companies went bankrupt. RPGs/Wargames have not fully recovered from the "Mazes & Monsters" mentality & misperceptions of the late 1970's to the late 1980's. We are still considered a fringe hobby. Combine that history with the current fears about pedophiles, the secluded location, a small town, possible religious backlash (Missouri has a large population of Mormons and conservative Christians for a state outside of the Bible Belt)- and your private gaming getaway may wind up getting raided if there is even a WHIFF of immorality, real or imagined.
3) I like your permission slip. However, given your environment, I would say that you should see if your fellow gamers might not mind being included by name on it. If they are pillars of the community in any way, that will alleviate the concerns of some parents.
I would seperate the permission slip and the "about D&D" sections into 2 seperate documents. Combining the permission slip with a "political tract" might turn people off, if only because of the clutter. If you do seperate the two, the D&D info sheet is where you would include the list of other group members.
Drop the "Rules for Playing" from the reverse and just distribute or post them at your game. It contains too many gaming terms that may confuse a concerned parent, and a confused, concerned parent can quickly become a complaining concerned parent. The "Rules of the Room/Rules for entering the house" are fine, but just combine them into one list.
Best of luck, and keep us informed!
1) If you look back at the past couple of years, you'll see that even college professors and coaches have lost or nearly lost their jobs because of fraternizing with students. You are, economically speaking, more fungible than a college level teacher or coach. And remember, rationality is in short ration these days when it comes to kids & teachers. In the past couple of years, we have even had a teacher forced to resign because she gave an "F" to students she caught cheating because "concerned parents" felt she had irreperably damaged their kids' self-esteem.
2) I STRONGLY reiterate my urging you game in a public place. I know-there are plenty of hobbies out there in which the very young and adults (even teachers) freely intermingle- radio control vehicles & robots, model trains, martial arts classes, target shooting, etc.- all without major parental concern. But most of them do not have a past history of religious based/parental villification, unjust though it is. Other hobbies that had that kind of parental attack took years to recover, like the comic book industry in the 1950's-several companies went bankrupt. RPGs/Wargames have not fully recovered from the "Mazes & Monsters" mentality & misperceptions of the late 1970's to the late 1980's. We are still considered a fringe hobby. Combine that history with the current fears about pedophiles, the secluded location, a small town, possible religious backlash (Missouri has a large population of Mormons and conservative Christians for a state outside of the Bible Belt)- and your private gaming getaway may wind up getting raided if there is even a WHIFF of immorality, real or imagined.
3) I like your permission slip. However, given your environment, I would say that you should see if your fellow gamers might not mind being included by name on it. If they are pillars of the community in any way, that will alleviate the concerns of some parents.
I would seperate the permission slip and the "about D&D" sections into 2 seperate documents. Combining the permission slip with a "political tract" might turn people off, if only because of the clutter. If you do seperate the two, the D&D info sheet is where you would include the list of other group members.
Drop the "Rules for Playing" from the reverse and just distribute or post them at your game. It contains too many gaming terms that may confuse a concerned parent, and a confused, concerned parent can quickly become a complaining concerned parent. The "Rules of the Room/Rules for entering the house" are fine, but just combine them into one list.
Best of luck, and keep us informed!
Buttercup said:
How did you know they were pedophiles, were they holding signs? I am not making light of this at all but your statement seems to be as judgemental as the parent who complained to d20 fool's principal. As a person that has written an as yet unpublished children's book I spent time at my local library and book stores doing research on just what I would be competing against. Does that make me a pedophile as well?
Although I feel terribly for d20 fool due to what's happened to him for just wanting to play a game with like minded individuals, not to mention being a positive role-model for those kids I would advise him (strongly) to not have minors at his games anymore. Perhaps that child's mother started causing trouble just to show her kid what she could do, that she has real power to ruin someone else's live and she should therefore be obeyed. It would seem that d20 fool has already had a taste of what an ill-informed person with a grudge can do. If you want to game with minors do it in a public place, in a public club open to full scrutiny, and with games as benign as chess and monopoly. There are lots of lunatic zealots like Jack Chick in the world and they have lots of followers. Be very careful and very transparent.
I grew up, along with my brother, in a single parent home. If it weren't for some of my teachers that were there for me as mentors, who went far beyond the other teachers, I could very well be like some of the burn-outs I went to school with. I know of several of my teachers that played D&D and I really wanted to play with them but all they could do was sponsor the school clubs. It's a shame really, but I do understand why. I just feel so badly for the kids like me who will get left behind because a simple pat on the back could mean the wrong thing to some misguided parent, or colleague, or grudge bearing individual. For all that teachers do for our society we sure treat them like crap....
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