[D&D history/development] I wonder why...

[Glyfair]

But that's circular logic. If she weren't LE, Gygax wouldn't have written her to be a ruler of Hell.

Maybe, maybe not. This is cleary a "which came first?" question. Was Tiamat listed as being the guardian of hell in OD&D.

Of course, one way of exploring the issue would be to go to the source. Has anyone asked Col. Pladoh on his thread why Tiamat is LE?

Sure we can talk about a dozen rationalizations for all of this. But given the lore for most settings, we're generally talking about sophisticated cultures that are thousands of years old and they never so much as wonder why a crystal refracts light. Nobody thinks of these things? Ever?

I tend to think that these things don't necessarily work the same in a fantasy world. Clearly certain things work differently (I don't recall anyone casting magic missile around me). Also normally observable things will work the same way, but not necessarily for the same reason. Maybe rubbing sticks together creates fire not because of "friction" but because it wakes up the fire spirits.

 

[Gentlegamer]

My guess on Tiamat being lawful is because the "real" Tiamat was the enemy of Marduk, who was the slayer of devils in Babylonian legend, thus the need for Tiamat to be lawful as an AD&D devil.

 

[jmucchiello]

I really think the DnD economic rules are incomplete more than inconsistent. I think most/all of us really just don't understand the value of a gold piece in the game world(Emphasis added). Maybe look at it this way - over $10/hour as a wage would mean 1 sp = $100 roughly in modern terms (I would say far less because of wealth disparities, but that aside...). So a high level adventurer with 150,000 gp in wealth is like someone with 15 million dollars in modern terms - that's really rich, but not a god-like amount of wealth.

Except that a mug of ale is 4cp or $40 by that notion. And a "hunk of cheese" costs 1sp. That still doesn't help us understand the value of the gold piece in the game world. I don't know where you shop, but a hunk of cheese doesn't cost me $100.

 

[Milagroso]

Except that a mug of ale is 4cp or $40 by that notion. And a "hunk of cheese" costs 1sp. That still doesn't help us understand the value of the gold piece in the game world. I don't know where you shop, but a hunk of cheese doesn't cost me $100.

I always equate the value of the gold piece with American dollars using the Short Sword as a basis. A shortsword costs 70gp. My shortsword made by Starfire Ltd. cost $70.00USD back in 1995. That would mean that a gold piece is equal to one dollar. Nowadays the very same sword costs me around $140.00. (That is inflation for you) So that would put the value at 1gp:$2.00.

However, I have notices that the pricing system in D&D is bizarre. I've been contemplating breaking out the economic models and reworking the entire economic structure of the game but... that is more work then I think I really want to go through.

 

[mmadsen]

To buy someone's life? Over the course of a laborer's lifetime (let's be optimistic at 30 years) he can expect to make around 1095 gp. But can you imagine buying someone's life at the cost of the lifetime earnings of someone making minimum wage? I can't. So by comparison I would say maybe 10 times as much, which is not small change for even high level characters (given the wealth-by-level charts and assuming PCs would have most of that wealth tied up in magic items).

If you compute how much a peasant's labor is worth over his productive lifespan, and you subtract out the cost of (poorly) feeding and housing him -- and you discount those future cash flows -- then you have effectively the price of a slave or the value of a serf in that economy.

I think most/all of us really just don't understand the value of a gold piece in the game world. Maybe look at it this way - over $10/hour as a wage would mean 1 sp = $100 roughly in modern terms (I would say far less because of wealth disparities, but that aside...). So a high level adventurer with 150,000 gp in wealth is like someone with 15 million dollars in modern terms - that's really rich, but not a god-like amount of wealth.

I think we need to accept that a medieval pre-industrial economy bears little resemblance to a modern post-industrial economy.

For most of human history, the average person produced a few hundred dollars worth of goods and services over the course of a year -- as in Africa today or most of Asia or Latin America 50 or 100 years ago. A tiny, tiny fraction of the population skimmed off the top of all that labor to live in relative splendor but absolute poverty by our standards. The one thing they could afford was lots and lots of servants, since labor was so cheap.

Anyway, we would do better to look at one silver piece as closer to one or two dollars, but to realize that the average person only makes that much per day, while the aristocracy "makes" orders of magnitude more. The average person can't afford much of anything -- most people are malnourished and live in hovels -- so the monetary economy caters only to the wealthy upper classes who make a show of spending money and demonstrating their status.

 

[mmadsen]

So have you ever begun to think of an aspect of D&D, something you've always accepted without question, and suddenly wondered why it is the way it is?

(I'm talking about historical aspects, flavor, and design, not so much rules mechanics.)

You mean like, why aren't goblins like the goblins from folklore, or the goblins/orc from Tolkien? And why aren't orc like Tolkien's orcs? And why are hobgoblins dressed in samurai armor? (All from 1E.)

 

[gizmo33]

Except that a mug of ale is 4cp or $40 by that notion. And a "hunk of cheese" costs 1sp. That still doesn't help us understand the value of the gold piece in the game world. I don't know where you shop, but a hunk of cheese doesn't cost me $100.

True - I was using an upper limit because it fit with the context of what I was saying at the time. 150,000 gp is at most a few millions dollars in modern terms - not godlike wealth.

I would say more of a $1-$10-$100 fits. $4 for a mug of ale in tavern? $10 for a hunk of cheese seems a lot but I think it might fit the tech level. Neither of us shops in the Middle Ages.

Also, I think there's a class system to consider in terms of wealth that probably isn't a good fit for the modern world. Most countries that I'm a aware of have a some kind of safety net - minimum wage, that sort of thing. So I think there would be a greater discrepency between goods for commoners and those for elites.

 

[gizmo33]

I always equate the value of the gold piece with American dollars using the Short Sword as a basis. A shortsword costs 70gp. My shortsword made by Starfire Ltd. cost $70.00USD back in 1995.

In 3.5 a short sword costs 10 gp. I'm aware of no edition of DnD that ever charged 70 gp for a shortsword.

Also, comparing apples to apples would make it tough to use modern prices for technology as a guage. I think one of the only things to remain constant in history is that a days work is a days work (and even the "day" isn't the same). I don't know what Starfire Ltd's actual process is for creating swords - I find $70 to be very low if they're actually smithing the thing by hand. Even so, the mining, the steelmaking, and the various accoutrements (hilt, scabbard, etc.) probably take advantage of the considerable technological improvements. AFAIK there is a huge efficiency difference, so that the amount of labor that goes into steel making nowadays is much less. I read somewhere that the value of iron in the Middle Ages was 10 times as great as it is now - though granted this was an unsupported statement.

In any case it's a complicated issue. An historical price for weaponry could be gained by finding actual prices, comparing them to actual daily labor rates, and then using the 1 sp/day price for DnD to translate them into DnD prices.

 

[gizmo33]

Anyway, we would do better to look at one silver piece as closer to one or two dollars, but to realize that the average person only makes that much per day,

Well, then we're sort of back to where we started, aren't we? Because the 1-2 dollars your talking about is not a daily wage (legally) for any person in the US, so how does that really answer the question? I agree that it's extremely difficult to compare apples to apples, but when someone hands a peasant 4 sp, how do they feel? How grateful would they be? What would it take to "buy someone's life"? I don't see the sense in trying to answer those questions in terms of US $ with some sort of caveat that the dollar amounts represent no actual economy that anyone in this country lives in. IMO if you want someone to understand the value of a silver piece, then I think it's sensible (though approximate) to compare it to the daily wage of the poorest laborer in this country (as it is in DnD), with adjustments for some historical peculiarities that I've already hinted at. In any case, as I mentioned above, the actual numbers I was throwing around represented a worse case scenario regarding what a rich adventurer's purchasing power would be like (which is the point relevant to the post I was responding to) - I really think some of you missed that point.

 

[mmadsen]

Because the 1-2 dollars your talking about is not a daily wage (legally) for any person in the US, so how does that really answer the question?

If you travel outside the US (and the rest of the developed world), it answers the question nicely. Quasi-medieval peasants live much like rural Africans, Asians, or Latin Americans today (or a few decades ago). An agrarian subsistence economy bears little resemblance to our modern US economy.

I agree that it's extremely difficult to compare apples to apples, but when someone hands a peasant 4 sp, how do they feel? How grateful would they be?

That would be four days' wages to the peasant, so he would presumably be quite grateful -- but it's perhaps even more important to realize that the peasant rarely deals in metal coins, and he doesn't live around the corner from any kind of store where he might spend that silver. His gratitude might be tempered by his fear that someone will find out he has silver and come to take it away.

What would it take to "buy someone's life"?

What's the price of a slave? What's the price of land that includes serfs to work it? Laborers produce very little wealth beyond what it takes to feed, clothe, and shelter them, so I suspect it would be fairly cheap to "buy someone's life" in a D&D economy -- and it would still only really pay off if you kept them hungry and in rags.

I don't see the sense in trying to answer those questions in terms of US $ with some sort of caveat that the dollar amounts represent no actual economy that anyone in this country lives in.

A pre-modern economy bears no resemblance to the modern US economy we live in.

IMO if you want someone to understand the value of a silver piece, then I think it's sensible (though approximate) to compare it to the daily wage of the poorest laborer in this country (as it is in DnD), with adjustments for some historical peculiarities that I've already hinted at.

My point is that "the" value of a silver piece varies tremendously depending on who you are. A peasant isn't even part of the monetary economy. He doesn't buy or sell things for metal coins. His life is typical of almost everyone in the pre-modern economhy.

A merchant deals in coins and accounts on a daily basis, but the merchant is part of a tiny, tiny subculture within the pre-modern world. The merchant is the one guy thinking like us, with a somewhat modern outlook toward money and economics.

The aristocrat has some money in coins, but his wealth is largely in land (and the serfs to work it). It is distasteful for him to count coins and handle accounts. That is what clerks are for. He is insulted by simple offers of cash, and he doesn't want to be seen dithering over prices. He is above all that, because he is a warrior, and he has to appear rich and powerful at all times, to maintain respect. He gives lavish gifts, and he expects lavish gifts. When he needs to spend the night somewhere, he doesn't pay "the" price for a hotel room. He stops somewhere, and the owners of the home are honored to have him as their guest, and they nervously prepare the best food and bedding they can muster. Then, when he leaves, he honors them with a gift of cash. It's not a modern transaction.