D&D 5E D&D is Getting Unweildy

[John Lloyd1]

I agree that the huge pile of books and boxed are intimidating in the store. But if you have the information that you only need a boxed set or the core 3 + adventure, it shouldn't be any more of an issue than in 2014.

On a player coming to the table with a Tasha character, there is a certain asymmetry between DM and player system mastery. But you need to trust the player! The DM needs to know the core rules, monsters and treasure. The Player needs to know the core rules and their character rules. The player should bring the source rules for their character so any DM queries can be clarified.

 

[Dragonsbane]

So let's say I've never played D&D before, but after watching Stranger Things, checking out Critical Role, and talking to my friends, I've decided to take the plunge, purchase some books, and get to playing. I walk into my local Barnes & Noble and I see the holy trinity of D&D books, The Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual, and I go ahead and purchase all three because I'm a masochist and DMing seems like its right up my ally. (Alternatively I'm a sadist and I wish to make my players suffer.) I've got an introductory adventure I'd like to run, and I invite a few of my friends over to play, some of whom have been playing D&D for a few years. What shows up to my table? Well, I've got an Artificer and a Celestial Warlock. Okay, I guess. And don't the stats on the Halfling fighter seen a little wonky? Since when did they get a bonus to strength?

I don't really care if we call it a new edition or what, but I'd like the rules codified in one set of books. If we're going to go with Tasha's when it comes to race in the future, then put that in the PHB. This might not be a big deal to those of of us who have been playing for a while, but this kind of thing will frustrate new players.

That goes against WoTC/D&D's model - publish as many books as possible, mostly redos of older books, wait 8 years, new edition time. TOo bad they don't have a wiki with everything like PF2, oh wait they do... but you pay for books there too. Sounds legit. I will now look lovingly at all my settings people are waiting for, but are on my shelf right now.

Also, as a new DM, don't be afraid to say NO to a player choice. Your table, your rules. If you are not comfortable with a furry half-halfling undead warforged artificer at your table, just tell them only PHB classes/subclasses for your first game. D&D 5E has so many choices, many of which are identical save the color of your tail or your one spell-like ability, its ok to restrict. I restrict races based on gameworld, location of campaign, and what actually exists in public (some races KOS).

 

[MGibster]

That goes against WoTC/D&D's model - publish as many books as possible, mostly redos of older books, wait 8 years, new edition time. TOo bad they don't have a wiki with everything like PF2, oh wait they do... but you pay for books there too. Sounds legit. I will now look lovingly at all my settings people are waiting for, but are on my shelf right now.

I don't believe WotC is actually publishing as many books as possible. That would be 2nd edition AD&D with it's Complete Handbook series, tons of adventrue modules, and more settings than most people could play. I'm not complaining that they're updating the rules, publishing new books, etc., etc. But if they're going to change things and go forward using Tasha, the core books should reflect that change.

 

[jagrhunter]

It's up to the DM to know his own limitations. If he doesn't want the hassle of a half-Aardvark/ half-Tarrasque Ranger/Artificer then he should tell his players. It's the same for any game i.e M&M, GURPS, Pathfinder, etc... Basic DnD is PHB/DMG/MM. Everything builds on that foundation. Original DnD was just that. Classes and races were what you had. Showing up to a 1ed game with a bard, would get you some looks,

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Those people are wrong. You don't just empty the whole spicerack into every meal you cook.

No group can use all options anyway--the analogy does not hold.

"All options that exist are available" is simply presuming that if there's something official, it's something you can actually try. The group you end up with will only end up with at most as many races, (sub)classes, etc. as it has players. It's not that big a deal.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Welcome to edition bloat. It was really bad during 3E.

Pretty much convinced me to just own the core 3 books. It's all you need.

 

[Mind of tempest]

it was always been unwieldy as the mechanic has never been simple plug-and-go, so can you better define what it is that is bothering you?

 

[Weiley31]

So let's say I've never played D&D before, but after watching Stranger Things, checking out Critical Role, and talking to my friends, I've decided to take the plunge, purchase some books, and get to playing. I walk into my local Barnes & Noble and I see the holy trinity of D&D books, The Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual, and I go ahead and purchase all three because I'm a masochist and DMing seems like its right up my ally. (Alternatively I'm a sadist and I wish to make my players suffer.) I've got an introductory adventure I'd like to run, and I invite a few of my friends over to play, some of whom have been playing D&D for a few years. What shows up to my table? Well, I've got an Artificer and a Celestial Warlock. Okay, I guess. And don't the stats on the Halfling fighter seen a little wonky? Since when did they get a bonus to strength?

I don't really care if we call it a new edition or what, but I'd like the rules codified in one set of books. If we're going to go with Tasha's when it comes to race in the future, then put that in the PHB. This might not be a big deal to those of of us who have been playing for a while, but this kind of thing will frustrate new players.

I mean after 2024, my games are gonna be a mixed of pre-2024 DND books and all the books released for 5E WoTC DND from 2014, with half-elf, half-orcs, Mord's Tome of Foes and all that so I'm sure everybody and all that will be just fine.

that's not even including certain 3PP like Humblewood and Iron Kingdom: Requiem.

 

[Weiley31]

D&D is Getting Unweildy

Next time, make sure you are proficient in D&D.

Does proficiency come from class, lineage, background, or feats?

I've been dual-wielding Call of Cthulhu and D&D for years.

Wait: you guys don't use any of the White Wolf splats???

 

[Stormonu]

I don't believe WotC is actually publishing as many books as possible. That would be 2nd edition AD&D with it's Complete Handbook series, tons of adventrue modules, and more settings than most people could play. I'm not complaining that they're updating the rules, publishing new books, etc., etc. But if they're going to change things and go forward using Tasha, the core books should reflect that change.

Unless, like me, I'm not using Tasha's rules - and do not want to. My wife, conversely is only using PHB - no additions allowed from Monsters of the Multiverse, Xanathar's OR Tasha's. Some people just don't want that stuff rolled back into the "basic" PHB.

Besides, doesn't help updating the PHB for 2022, if everybody at the table is still using their 2014 copy, and doesn't feel like buying a new one.

 

[Gadget]

I think 5e has done a better job of avoiding the problems mentioned in the OP than any Edition of the past 20+ years. They have been vary restrained in releasing bloat, and the whole PHB + 1 idea they had going was designed to combat these problems. However, any edition has to release new things over time, as the initial PHB material inevitably has issues that manifest over time.

 

[Reynard]

Unless, like me, I'm not using Tasha's rules - and do not want to. My wife, conversely is only using PHB - no additions allowed from Monsters of the Multiverse, Xanathar's OR Tasha's. Some people just don't want that stuff rolled back into the "basic" PHB.

Besides, doesn't help updating the PHB for 2022, if everybody at the table is still using their 2014 copy, and doesn't feel like buying a new one.

Why would WotC concern themselves with non customers? If people refuse to buy the new core they probably aren't going to buy the next Tasha's either.

 

[Umbran]

It's about how easy it is for someone to come into the hobby.

I dunno if "coming into the hobby" by jumping in as a GM without any prior experience has, or will, ever be considered an easy way to enter.

 

[MGibster]

I dunno if "coming into the hobby" by jumping in as a GM without any prior experience has, or will, ever be considered an easy way to enter.

How about making is less difficult then? I wonder if a lot of us old hands are so used to the way things are we don't consider what the experience might be for new players.

 

[Umbran]

How about making is less difficult then? I wonder if a lot of us old hands are so used to the way things are we don't consider what the experience might be for new players.

Well, they have these wonderful starter sets, that have so far had pretty good adventures in them, with pregen characters, rules, and so on...

 

[payn]

How about making is less difficult then? I wonder if a lot of us old hands are so used to the way things are we don't consider what the experience might be for new players.

Lot of old hands drop youtube vids daily on how to make it easier. Publishing this stuff in books would take a mountain of resources.

 

[Datactingguy]

As some who jumped on a few years ago, I found it was very easy to learn to play and eventually DM. Had never played a tabletop role play game before, all I had to do was Google anything I needed to know. The 5e wiki dot has pretty much everything I needed to know, before I eventually bought any books (the core three were actually some of the later books I picked up).

 

[Vaalingrade]

Allow me to reveal the magic incantation that helped me pick my way through that issue back in 3e all the way through now in multiple editions and multiple systems: "Show me".

Then I look at the material and know how it works. Don't need to know the whole book, just what's on the character.

 

[Stormonu]

Why would WotC concern themselves with non customers? If people refuse to buy the new core they probably aren't going to buy the next Tasha's either.

Just because I'm not using Tasha's doesn't mean I'm not a customer. I still picked up Spelljammer, for example.

 

[Guest 7034872]

Hm. I may be an outlier on this, but the learning curve on AD&D was a big appeal to me in high school. When I first started on Moldvay, I recall the apparent complexity of AD&D did deter me from jumping right into it, so it may be that beginners would profit from a less complicated system. Even there, though, my sense is that YT videos and Twitch streams have made 5e a lot less intimidating to beginners than "back in my day."

I have a twelve-year-old student at my school who is just beginning to play, and his buddies are energetically making sure he successfully climbs the 5e learning curve. From what I've seen, the abundance of options and skills to learn about has him pretty excited, not intimidated.