D&D 5E [D&D Next] Second Packet - initial impressions

[pemerton]

The main thing I notice is that there is still no interaction pillar. For an edition that was meant to be balanced around 3 pillars of play, there is a lot of focus on combat mechanics!

 

[I'm A Banana]

No reason we can't have one thread about this....

Mod Powers, Activate! MURGE!

 

[ExploderWizard]

I react so negatively to rolling for ability scores (and hit dice for the same reason) that its hard to even summarize.

Its like people who drive 45 miles per hour on a 65 mile per hour interstate, for no reason except that they feel like it. Their decisions affect other people in a small but negative way. They, for trivial reasons, have chosen to make other people's lives just a tiny bit worse. The sheer banality of it makes it a moral issue.

WOTC is choosing to make the lives of children worse for almost no reason. Adults who have been gaming for a while will know to choose the ability score generation system that they like the most. But having rolling for ability scores be the "core" method makes people say the game "feels like D&D," so rolling is listed as the primary method.

That means it will be the method used by new, younger players. They'll roll ability scores, invariably some characters will be way better than others due to these die rolls, and someone's first character, the one with a ridiculous name and corny abilities that they believe to be TOTALLY AWESOME because that's what you're like at age 12... will be an utter bust. Because of this. A child life will be, in a small but noticeable way, worse. Thanks.

[ON-Morgan Freeman]

Every six hours, a child rolls up a suboptimal character for a roleplaying game. These poor children have to contend with playing with what fate has dealt them in a fictional environment. With help and support we can provide these unfortunate souls decent arrays with which to build their little optimized monsters.

Please give generously to DAFY (Decent Arrays For Youngsters). A first level character is a terrible thing to waste.

[OFF-Morgan Freeman]

 

[Ahnehnois]

If I've understood [MENTION=40961]Cadfan[/MENTION] right, he's envisaging a kid wanting to play the game in "heroic" style - your PC is your avatar in an exploration of a heroic fantasy world - being stuck with a "Gygaxian" stat generation method: PCs are essentially disposable, and you go through a stable of them until you get one that survives (perhaps because it got lucky on stat rolls).

That's not about learning the virtues of adversity (and I question whether games are even the place to learn this). It's about the game not being suited to deliver what the kid expects from it.

I guess the reaction, as I understand it, is that this expectation is very specific, usually arises from people who've played a while, and is not an attitude that the rules need to go out of their way to nurture. It also seems like a grave misunderstanding of kids (I think most of ENW is a long, long way from childhood), who are very resilient and open-minded and are unlikely to complain that their character is not good enough even if this is actually true.

I also think that the ability of the game to handle differing ability arrays is important. If a game falls apart if you don't use point buy, it is hardly balanced then is it?

FWIW I would have presented rolling and a simple point buy in the playtest.

 

[B.T.]

This looks a lot more like D&D than the last playtest did. It's also a lot more polished. I'm liking it so far, especially the backgrounds.

Is this what hope feels like?

 

[Li Shenron]

If I've understood [MENTION=40961]Cadfan[/MENTION] right, he's envisaging a kid wanting to play the game in "heroic" style - your PC is your avatar in an exploration of a heroic fantasy world - being stuck with a "Gygaxian" stat generation method: PCs are essentially disposable, and you go through a stable of them until you get one that survives (perhaps because it got lucky on stat rolls).

That's not about learning the virtues of adversity (and I question whether games are even the place to learn this). It's about the game not being suited to deliver what the kid expects from it.

I would understand if Gygaxian as "roll six times 3d6, in that order".

4d6-drop-lowest + rearrange freely + bonus from class + bonus from race + bonuses every 4 levels does not yield "disposable" characters.

If I see a kid whining about that, I would personally smack him with a wand of wonder.

 

[Mallus]

... being stuck with a "Gygaxian" stat generation method: PCs are essentially disposable, and you go through a stable of them until you get one that survives (perhaps because it got lucky on stat rolls).

The prevalence of low stats in the Gygax era has been greatly exaggerated. Take a look at the pregens included in the classic modules -- I just took a gander at "Slave Pits of the Undercity" where 18's abound, and the lowest CON is 15 -- and you'll find a much different set of practical expectations re: character stats.

Besides, every group I knew in the 1980s used partially random stat generation, ie if you rolled terribly you either got a free high stat or simply rolled again.

And even back then, it wasn't about wasting a 1st level character, it was about wasting the player's time, which is an even bigger consideration for us now, now that so many of us gamers are middle aged!

 

[EvilDwarf]

Sorry if I'm INT 3 this morning, but are we missing half the xp table? The text mentions up to level 10 but I only see numbers to 5??

 

[Viking Bastard]

I don't like the rollback on skills. I was intrigued by the static +5 instead of adding a ability modifier, which they were thinking about there for a while, but now it's basically the same as 3e/4e.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

My initial thoughts were fro my 7 year old, who played a PF Basic Box Wizard and hated that he was just a crossbowman, and not a good one at that! Now you can still contribute, like 4E, once your dailies are gone or you do not wish to use them.

Just thought I would let you know that "cantrips" in Pathfinder are at will.

Not sure why anyone needs to switch to a crossbow when you have unlimited cantrips.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Any reason why the other point buy systems wouldn't work here?

If you don't like to roll then use a point buy or pregen stats.

 

[pemerton]

The prevalence of low stats in the Gygax era has been greatly exaggerated. Take a look at the pregens included in the classic modules -- I just took a gander at "Slave Pits of the Undercity" where 18's abound, and the lowest CON is 15 -- and you'll find a much different set of practical expectations re: character stats.

Yes. Often these PCs have decent items too!

But they clearly weren't randomly generated. Which is why the inclusion of random generation rules strikes me as odd.

 

[hamstertamer]

So far still not interested.

It seems to being going in directions that I have rejected or just seems to not make sense.

 

[Celestian]

Yes. Often these PCs have decent items too!

But they clearly weren't randomly generated. Which is why the inclusion of random generation rules strikes me as odd.

Low stats were a product of Basic D&D, not AD&D.

 

[Someone]

Initial impression is very unfavorable. Even leaving out the fiddly parts that can be excused as being a product in development it’s either bland, unwieldy or uninteresting. The worst part is magic – not only they fail to recognize it’s potential, again making it not quadratic but cubic but it also promotes the wrong kind of system mastery. They’re inexplicably obsessed with the idea of powerful wizard=gonzo damage, when it’s been discussed again and again that those weren’t the kind of spells that broke 3e casters.

Since stats are supposed to be nearly constant through the levels, spells that target those not only remain as useful as ever but instead better, since save DC depend on the wizard level, not the spell slot. This means Grease remains as useful at shutting down a poor Dex creature at level 20 as it was at level 1 (cast it under the gelatinous cube and laugh). Want to be a good wizard? Scrounge splatbooks for spells with saves Vs ability, then memorize monster stats. Choose the right spell for the right monster.

Other spells rely on hit points total to work. A spell may be waster on one monster, but be excellent against another with 5 hit point total less. Want to be a good wizard? Memorize monster stats, again.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I don't want to go too far off-topic, but I don't think the wizard in my PF BB games ever used a crossbow. Depending on the school they chose at character creation there were several options. And even Ray of Frost as a ranged touch attack for 1d3 worked in a pinch.

I am sure everyone had different play experiences, but not sure that single play experience characterizes the whole game.

I know it doesn't characterise the whole game but it was my initial impression (as in my first one) as thread title.

Just thought I would let you know that "cantrips" in Pathfinder are at will.

Not sure why anyone needs to switch to a crossbow when you have unlimited cantrips.

Because 1d3 for Ray of Frost vs 1d8 for Crossbow is a no brainer. Move to reload, sure, but you stay out of the melee as a Wizard. The to hit chance is the same. If the Ray of Frost did something else, like this play test version, or more damage (d6 and no reload) it might be worthwhile. But even my 7 (was then 6) year old knew that ray of frost was little use the majority of the time.

EDIT Tho we may have mucked up 'cos the character sheet says ranged attack vs touch which may have been over looked LOL

 

[Yora]

Some things still feel like placeholders that need to be replaced with something good at the future. Like ability scores for humans and immunities to broad categories of effects.

But what I think is the most disappointing is how terrible the editing is. Some terms where changed in some places, but not in others. XP for monsters seem completely wrong and it never tells what an elite monster is. With armor we have identical banded and splint armor, and so on. That's really awful.

 

[IronWolf]

Because 1d3 for Ray of Frost vs 1d8 for Crossbow is a no brainer. Move to reload, sure, but you stay out of the melee as a Wizard. The to hit chance is the same. If the Ray of Frost did something else, like this play test version, or more damage (d6 and no reload) it might be worthwhile. But even my 7 (was then 6) year old knew that ray of frost was little use the majority of the time.

EDIT Tho we may have mucked up 'cos the character sheet says ranged attack vs touch which may have been over looked LOL

Yeah - the ranged versus touch is the big thing. Less damage with Ray of Frost, but much greater chance of hitting.

Also, depending on which school the wizard chose there were some other options for attack that were at least 3 + INT modifier times per day. Between Ray of Frost, spells and those special abilities a Pathfinder Wizard can usually avoid the old crossbow.

 

[KidSnide]

.But what I think is the most disappointing is how terrible the editing is. Some terms where changed in some places, but not in others. XP for monsters seem completely wrong and it never tells what an elite monster is. With armor we have identical banded and splint armor, and so on. That's really awful.

Of course the editing is "bad." The editing isn't done yet.

This is like criticizing the plating 20 minutes into an episode of Iron Chef.

-KS

 

[Raith5]

Leaving aside the other issues in your post: The overall power level of the game is a separate concern from inter-character balance. The former is a matter of what power level makes for a fun game, the latter is a matter of what fairness makes for a fun game.

What I find strange is that they explicitly design a game with low numbers, bounded accuracy, etc etc then base on the system on a swingy foundation for stats. It just seems a little at cross purposes.

Of course everyone should do what you want at your table, but from a design point of view: at some point nostalgia conflicts with other design goals.