D&D 5E D&D Races: Evolution, Fantasy Stereotypes & Escapism

[Lyxen]

To elaborate on my "generalizations vs stereotypes" post upthread (generalization are cognitively necessary, stereotypes less so), the issue with stereotypes is that they are by definition over-generalized beliefs about a group or class of people. Positive stereotypes exist and can be useful quick reference points - similar to generalizations, but positive stereotypes are greatly outnumbered by negative stereotypes, and often go arm-in-arm with prejudices.

As a result, I think it's just best to treat stereotypes as a bad thing.

Ah yes, the (in)famous precautions principle. Well, I don't agree, "generalisation" does not mean anything, it's as general a word as can be. I want to be able to describe groups of people for my campaign, obviously in non-offensive way and with no relation to real world groups of people. What is going to happen now ? Will the word "stereotype" become a banned word on this site ?

 

[Irlo]

In the US (and only there), people are banning the use of perfectly good words because they have been used by bad people (race, exotic, tribe, now stereotype, what's next ?). I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous.

That is ridiculous. And it hasn’t happened.

 

[Dire Bare]

Orcs, elves, and dwarves are different species*.

If you're given a dog, a cat and a horse it isn't racial stereotyping to have the dog herd your sheep, the horse pull your wagon, and the cat catch mice.


*in D&D at any rate. Admittedly in LotR orcs and elves are the same species (although dwarves are still distinct) and in Elder Scrolls all three all the same species (although they're still distinct from humans as well as from the lizard people and the cat people and the the tree creatures)

No, they aren't, not really. The concept of "species" doesn't exist in D&D and the larger fantasy genre, at least not classically.

In the real world, there is only one sentient, intelligent species, humans. We have zero experience with other sentient species.

The sci-fi genre, broadly, tries to imagine what meeting and interacting with other sentient species might be like. With a broad range of approach and effectiveness. D&D has a lot of influences from sci-fi, more and more so over the decades, but it isn't sci-fi.

In both "light" sci-fi, or sci-fantasy, and the fantasy genre, all of the non-human "races" are seemingly different species on the surface, but that isn't how they are coded or written. They are written as stereotypes of humanity that map pretty well to real-world stereotypes of different ethnic groups and how humans broadly treat "the other".

Trying to avoid these types of discussions by claiming, "Elves are a different species" is just as bad as the claim, "It's just fantasy, orcs aren't real people."

 

[Lyxen]

That is ridiculous. And it hasn’t happened.

Proof ? The errata on Tomb of Annihilation:

• Entertainer (p. 10). In the last sentence, cut the words "and exotic".
• Chultans (p. 12). In the last sentence of the third paragraph, delete the word "tribal".
• Introduction (p. 15). In the last sentence of first paragraph, delete the word "exotic".
• Introduction (p. 15). In the first sentence of the second paragraph, change the word "savage" to "terrifying".
• Garden (p. 28). In the first sentence, delete the word "exotic".
• Prisoners of the Yuan-ti (p. 118). In the last sentence of the first paragraph, change the word "tribes" to "homes".

So, obviously, some words are now banned. And it's not the first time, people on this site have already expressly told me that it was not proper to use words such as "primitive". And I'm not even speaking of "oriental".

 

[Irlo]

Proof ? The errata on Tomb of Annihilation:

• Entertainer (p. 10). In the last sentence, cut the words "and exotic".
• Chultans (p. 12). In the last sentence of the third paragraph, delete the word "tribal".
• Introduction (p. 15). In the last sentence of first paragraph, delete the word "exotic".
• Introduction (p. 15). In the first sentence of the second paragraph, change the word "savage" to "terrifying".
• Garden (p. 28). In the first sentence, delete the word "exotic".
• Prisoners of the Yuan-ti (p. 118). In the last sentence of the first paragraph, change the word "tribes" to "homes".

So, obviously, some words are now banned. And it's not the first time, people on this site have already expressly told me that it was not proper to use words such as "primitive". And I'm not even speaking of "oriental".

That’s not a ban. Those are editorial changes.

 

[Filthy Lucre]

That is ridiculous. And it hasn’t happened.

I don't think it's really debatable that certain words are slipping onto a "do not use" list. Whether that is good or bad, thats debatable, but to say that it isn't happening is just false. I could even demonstrate it but my post would instantly be flagged.

 

[Filthy Lucre]

That’s not a ban. Those are editorial changes.

That's sort of a pedantic response to what he's saying. He isn't claiming some super organization is formally banning words, he's saying that the cultural zeitgeist is figuratively "banning" words. Also, as they are editorial changes, that makes us ask WHY they were changed... the answer to which would exactly back up Lyxen's assertion.

In fact, actually, this very forum explicitly lists terms/words that people are not allowed to use.

 

[Lyxen]

No, they aren't, not really. The concept of "species" doesn't exist in D&D and the larger fantasy genre, at least not classically.

It does, actually, the 5e monster manual says: "Humanoids are the main peoples of the D&D world, both civilized and savage, including humans and a tremendous variety of other species. " But also:

• An unexpected breakthrough produced sapient soldiers, giving rise to what some have only grudgingly accepted as a new species.
• If the creature is of a species and gender you are normally attracted to, you regard it as your true love while you are charmed.
• And a few more if you do a search.

Trying to avoid these types of discussions by claiming, "Elves are a different species" is just as bad as the claim, "It's just fantasy, orcs aren't real people."

I think it's interesting to note the difference between races, ethnicities and species, when using the proper definition, it can avoid a lot of confusion.

 

[Cadence]

Proof ? The errata on Tomb of Annihilation:

• Entertainer (p. 10). In the last sentence, cut the words "and exotic".
• Chultans (p. 12). In the last sentence of the third paragraph, delete the word "tribal".
• Introduction (p. 15). In the last sentence of first paragraph, delete the word "exotic".
• Introduction (p. 15). In the first sentence of the second paragraph, change the word "savage" to "terrifying".
• Garden (p. 28). In the first sentence, delete the word "exotic".
• Prisoners of the Yuan-ti (p. 118). In the last sentence of the first paragraph, change the word "tribes" to "homes".

So, obviously, some words are now banned. And it's not the first time, people on this site have already expressly told me that it was not proper to use words such as "primitive". And I'm not even speaking of "oriental".

The primary connotation of words changes over times. It seems strange to me not to take that into account.

 

[payn]

Proof ? The errata on Tomb of Annihilation:

• Entertainer (p. 10). In the last sentence, cut the words "and exotic".
• Chultans (p. 12). In the last sentence of the third paragraph, delete the word "tribal".
• Introduction (p. 15). In the last sentence of first paragraph, delete the word "exotic".
• Introduction (p. 15). In the first sentence of the second paragraph, change the word "savage" to "terrifying".
• Garden (p. 28). In the first sentence, delete the word "exotic".
• Prisoners of the Yuan-ti (p. 118). In the last sentence of the first paragraph, change the word "tribes" to "homes".

So, obviously, some words are now banned. And it's not the first time, people on this site have already expressly told me that it was not proper to use words such as "primitive". And I'm not even speaking of "oriental".

The concepts remain, they are just choosing to use different language. Does that mean you can use these products now?