'D&D' with True20 -- thoughts?

[Akrasia]

Really, I always thought the concept made the most sense of all the casters.
...
So yeah, if I was going to drop any of them it would be Int-based followed by Wis-based.

Well, different strokes and all that. It just seems a bit silly to me that people who have 'strong personalities' can alter reality in predictable, systematic ways.

I guess I'm too partial to viewing magical powers as 'formulae' that enable people to altar reality, i.e. abilities that require knowledge, training, and mental agility to fully master.

Also, the traditional portrayal of wizards/mages in literature and myth as masters of esoteric knowledge make me partial to INT-based spellcasting.

 

[Akrasia]

... I just won't purchase a product that uses it, no matter how easy it would be to fix it with house rules, because I want people to stop using it.

Sorry, but this strikes me as a rather silly overreaction, given how easy it is to simply ignore the wealth mechanic.

I certainly would not consider passing over a fine system like True20 over something as trivial as this.

 

[Terwox]

Pardon the aside...

From dictionary.com:

Charisma: 1. Theology. a divinely conferred gift or power. 2. a spiritual power or personal quality that gives an individual influence or authority over large numbers of people. (other definitions for personal magnetism and leadership follow, of course.)

I always took charisma as meaning that -- a lumping of simple power along with personal magnetism. Made sense to me.

My True20 game is primarily CHA casters, with some WIS. I should probably know this, as it's my homebrew, but I think the only primarily INT casters are necromancers... who would make just as much sense as CHA for my world.

By no means am I suggesting you change what you think sounds most interesting! Just explaining my position.

 

[ZSutherland]

But, HOW did you get burned by it?

My players simply could not make the characters they wanted. They decided they wanted to be private detectives (a Dedicated investigator, a Fast wheelman/gunner, and a Smart computer expert). Everything was fine and dandy until they realized that with exactly average rolls, doing it as the book suggests (buy everything under your wealth level first), buying a car effectively bankrupted them and they still didn't have weapons or anything else (including a computer for the Smart character).

I've heard that it creates the reverse problem later on, that the players can buy anything they want, but since my players were so turned off by it that we never actually played the game, I wouldn't know. There-in lies the burn. I spent money on a game that we -never- played because my players were so opposed to this rule after they tried to use it.

As for it being an over-reaction, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I plain don't like the mechanic, and I don't want to see it gain wider support amongst designers. I therefore exercise the consumer vote and don't buy products that include it.

 

[Nyaricus]

I've heard that it creates the reverse problem later on, that the players can buy anything they want

Wait, have you ever played D&D before? Because by the time you are in your low teens, you'd be able to buy a kingdom no sweat

In any case, not many people without great paying jobs can afford to buy a car straight out of highschool or Uni, so why should your brand-spanking new D20 Modern character be able to (I assume they just bought it and didn't lease it, eh)?

Honestly, I don't see a game could break down over not having enough cash. The Rule of Zero is still very much a valid and powerful rule - one which you should have used to keep this game going. Also, as I said, you could have let them lease the car, it would have required a lower check rather than buying it outright. In any case, you seem well entrenched in your position, so I'll leave it at that.

cheers,
--N

 

[Turanil]

<...> Wealth system <...> I want people to stop using it.

LOL!

 

[Danyael]

I've only read the Quickstart rules (thinking 'bout buying it, OK!?) and, dear Lord, about time the vancian system gets scrapped! And Akrasia, I totally agree with you; Wizards and Sorcerers difer in that they use different ability modifiers and have different options: more spells per day + limited known spells vs. all that fit in your book spells + limited spells/day, with the wizard having the advantage of using an ability score that actually works (come on, people, charisma doesn't even deserve to be an ability score! I mean, why do you think most classes in the PHB were pregenerated in the DMG with pure 8's in their charisma score? 'Cause it's useless unless it modifies something in combat). The issue of clerics and magic can be solved in-game with whatever explanation fits you. I don't know; state that "clerics" are not allowed this type of magic, or that a religious entity is known to be involved with this other type of magic, you name it.

Did I win my beer for this?

 

[ValhallaGH]

(come on, people, charisma doesn't even deserve to be an ability score! I mean, why do you think most classes in the PHB were pregenerated in the DMG with pure 8's in their charisma score? 'Cause it's useless unless it modifies something in combat).

You need to play some Iron Heroes, friend. Watching a weapon master use his Charisma to fight a five headed-hydra is an experience. He got Cha and dex to defense, and uses Cha for attack and damage with a rapier. Finally, his +13 Intimidate allowed him to get the Hydra's attention, letting him successfully tank it for a round and a half.
All of this at 4th level.

 

[Akrasia]

... I plain don't like the mechanic, and I don't want to see it gain wider support amongst designers. I therefore exercise the consumer vote and don't buy products that include it.

Yeah, good luck with your boycott. I'm sure its impact will be felt throughout the gaming industry real soon.

 

[Akrasia]

... come on, people, charisma doesn't even deserve to be an ability score! ...

I have some sympathy with this view.

In past games, I've often relied on simple role-playing rather than 'social skills' like diplomacy, etc. (i.e. skills where charisma is the modifier), although I've tried to take into account the PCs' skills and charisma as much as possible. I suppose if one actually rolls for diplomacy checks, etc., on a regular basis there might be some reason for keeping charisma (although not necessarily a high one -- it seems that a low CHA can quickly be overcome through the expenditure of skill points, which are provided with high INT, i.e., if you have an INT 16 and a CHA 8, you can easily spend the necessary skill points to boost your diplomacy, etc., to overcome your low CHA).

I think that I'd prefer simply eliminating charisma, and adding feats that PCs can choose if they want to be especially 'charismatic' (i.e. feats for significantly 'above average' personal magnetism, forceful personality, charm and comelinrss, etc.). However, i certainly don't feel strongly enough about this to rework True20 in such a manner. For the time being, I think I'll just keep CHA as is with respect to skills, and as a bonus to Conviction.