D&D 5E D&DN going down the wrong path for everyone.

[I'm A Banana]

I think you can roughly divide the D&D community into two main camps; the 3E/PF crowd and the 4E crowd. I realize there are OD&D, 1E, and 2E players out there, but I find that in most arguments, they're gonna come down on the side of the 3rd Edition folks. They'll remain united so long as the 4E people are a threat.

Tribalism is no fun for anyone.

There isn't a One True Way to Pretend to Be A Magical Elf, and the game isn't ruined if someone else is doing this in a way you hate.

I don't see any edition of D&D as a "threat," and I think that's a remarkably petty way to view the world, regardless of what your favorite way to roll funny-shaped plastic dice and talk in funny voices is.

I don't think most D&D fans are as purity-obsessed as all that. Some vocal folks on message boards might try to draw borders and become gatekeepers for what "true" D&D can be for them, but they're probably more bark than bite, and ultimately have no way to enforce their preferences.

So NEXT will be fine, even if a few diehards cannot abide it, as long as it hits the sweet spot of "fun game for imagining to be an elf" for enough old people and new people that those diehards don't matter.

Given that most players probably aren't so sectarian about it, I think this is really possible.

 

[D'karr]

But it seems to have turned out that WotC marketing got it wrong, and that at least among current RPGers there really isn't so much demand for those sorts of mechanics, and that simulationist mechanics remain hugely popular even when (as I would see it) they put huge pressures on, and even distort or undermine, the basics of game play.

I think this might be a very large oversimplification. The game came out about a year too early (it really needed additional testing). The marketing campaign was "horrible", IMO. But more importantly the game was a broad toolbox, with few solid instructions. I believe that the lack of clear explanation is really what hurts the game most. In addition, there was no reason why certain subsystems could not be put in place to continue to emulate other types of games - I'm thinking specifically of dials dealing with "recovery", and resource attrition - With coherent examples of how to "make the toolbox" work in the desired fashion. The biggest challenge, I saw, was a "schizofrenic" type of design that had appropriate tools for things, but didn't use them in the most effective manner (the published adventures). And one which provided no tools at all, or no explanations of how to make it work differently (to taste).

Essentials is such an obvious debacle on the publishing side it's really hard to know where to start.

The interesting part is that Essentials from the mechanics standpoint is merely an "in place" patch. It expands the game mechanically by adding a variation of how classes (the basic player side building block) are built. It incorporates errata and cleans up rules (feats, skills, pg42 table). It also fixes the "base monster" book math. Presentationwise it tries to "more organically" present the information. Whereas the PHB and MM seemed very clinical (almost technical manual level), the Heroes and MV books are more rooted for the novice.

The problem is that organizationwise there was way too much overlap, and some of the information just seemed to drag, and was repeated in multiple books. Then there was the "schizofrenic" design again. I liked how they had names that were evocative - Forgotten Kingdoms, Fallen Lands. But then the books do nothing to expand on that. If the books had been a solid primer on PoL (Nerath), that might have kept my interest. It just felt like a half-assed attempt.

Mechanically they are pretty solid. They play side by side without any issues with the original core. But presentation, and even focus is all over the place. I'm still wondering what this line was actually supposed to do.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

Speaking as a *player* of PF and D&D#e (closest I've come to DMing D&D in years is C&C), I'm really liking what I've seen of DDN. But since I've no real idea when it's going to be released, I'm having a difficult time keeping my enthusiasm up. People keep mentioning 18 months in this thread. That's a long time to maintain customer interest in a forthcoming product.

 

[billd91]

The 3e launch was full of things that said how 2e AD&D had got things wrong (Devils and Demons, "Back to the Dungeon", etc) as well as digs at MMORPG players (If you're going to sit in your basement pretending to be an elf, do it with some friends). Gratuitous sneering at the people who are playing the wrong way seems to be the D&D teams preferred style of advertising their new editions.

You saw those things as criticism of 2e? I don't recall ever hearing that "Back to the Dungeon" was a criticism of more story-based play. Monte Cook's Dungeoncraft articles highlighted the new theme but also acknowledged they're still retaining stuff they learned from 2e. And the issue with devils and demons was directed more at themselves/TSR and the lack of backbone around the "disapproving mom" issue. Neither are really sneers directed at anyone's style of play, as I see it.

 

[pemerton]

So NEXT will be fine, even if a few diehards cannot abide it

Do you categorise "probably not inclined to play it" as "can't abide it"?

 

[Iosue]

Jeff Grubb on the transition:

AD&D (1st/2nd Edition) versus D&D (3rd Edition) - This was a major break, the transition made easier by a change of management (and location) and a willingness and ability of the new guys to pillory the previous editions (Most of all the revised 2nd Ed of its later years). Those following previous editions were simply ignored for the new shiny, the idea being that if it was cool enough the old grogs would come back to the fold. The business plan did not care, to quote one executive, "If any player of 2nd Edition came over to 3rd." We had T-shirts made mocking 2nd Edition weaknesses. And it was successful.

 

[pemerton]

Mechanically they are pretty solid.

The only Essentials content that's seen a lot of play in my game are the Superior F/R/W feats - which are very solid from the players' side!

Whereas the PHB and MM seemed very clinical (almost technical manual level), the Heroes and MV books are more rooted for the novice.

But so long. Compare the flavour text, especially in the HotF* books, to Moldvay Basic. What happened to the idea of half-a-page of flavour for a class?

I liked how they had names that were evocative - Forgotten Kingdoms, Fallen Lands. But then the books do nothing to expand on that.

Good point.

 

[Mournblade94]

I think this is the truth, or close enough to it. Although I don't think sales suffer from lack of fans, or because 4E is bad/fail game. I think release their model was flawed. I think WotC actually heard the 3.X Splatbook revolt outcry and made a genuine attempt at providing books that were, in a sense, optional. As a DM I did not buy PHB2 or PHB 3. I did not buy the Dragonborn book, nor the Feywild book (although I hear its great). I didn't buy a lot of 4E books. I didn't need them, and because they were so narrow focused, they were optional. Add to it the Character Builder that allowed me to build characters from PHB2 or PHB3, and the problem is even worse!

In short, as a publishing model, it was flawed.

Pathfinder's success has less to do with the system than with the content. Write adventures and they play. Include narrative/fluff in publications. Make the books a pleasure to READ and people will buy. How many people have APs on their shelves they will likely never run, but enjoyed reading them anyway? THAT is how you sell books.

4E has great technical manuals for a great technical game. But beyond the core, they are largely unnecessary and almost all are not fun to read for the sake of reading (again I hear feywild one is a good read, but my ship has sailed).

I have every AP path ever published by Paizo.

1) I have run Crimson Throne to completion,

2) The first book/part of Legacy of fire

3) HALF of the Carrion Crown.

There is no way I game fast enough to keep up, but they are full of excellent ideas.

 

[Mournblade94]

Tribalism is no fun for anyone.

There isn't a One True Way to Pretend to Be A Magical Elf, and the game isn't ruined if someone else is doing this in a way you hate.

I don't see any edition of D&D as a "threat," and I think that's a remarkably petty way to view the world, regardless of what your favorite way to roll funny-shaped plastic dice and talk in funny voices is.

I don't think most D&D fans are as purity-obsessed as all that. Some vocal folks on message boards might try to draw borders and become gatekeepers for what "true" D&D can be for them, but they're probably more bark than bite, and ultimately have no way to enforce their preferences.

So NEXT will be fine, even if a few diehards cannot abide it, as long as it hits the sweet spot of "fun game for imagining to be an elf" for enough old people and new people that those diehards don't matter.

Given that most players probably aren't so sectarian about it, I think this is really possible.

I think this was addressed in Gulliver's Travels when the war was between the Big Endians and the Little Endians. They went to war over which end to crack the egg.

 

[Ratskinner]

You saw those things as criticism of 2e? I don't recall ever hearing that "Back to the Dungeon" was a criticism of more story-based play. Monte Cook's Dungeoncraft articles highlighted the new theme but also acknowledged they're still retaining stuff they learned from 2e. And the issue with devils and demons was directed more at themselves/TSR and the lack of backbone around the "disapproving mom" issue. Neither are really sneers directed at anyone's style of play, as I see it.

I tend to agree. I find talk of previous edition wars to be extremely overblown. Many changes (especially "fluffier" changes) that 3e brought, were changes that people were already houseruling in their 2e games (no demi-human level limits, multiclassing, you can call them "devils" now, etc.) To some extent, you can even look at things like feats and the skill systems as massive overhauls of the 2e NWP and Skills and Powers stuff.