D&D General D&D's feel vs. what D&D should keep - final comparison

[Stalker0]

With the sample size we shouldn’t get too concerned about the specifics, aka slight tier differences and the like. But the overall trends I think are useful.

when we look at things like initiative, I think why they rank high on keep but not on dnd is because initiative isn’t particularly interesting, but there isn’t really anything better either. Every initiative system has its pros and cons, and initiative works well enough in dnd.

contrast that to saving throws, though they have changed a bit over time, the idea of “rolling the big rock die to not get messed up” is very iconic...and a lot of fun

 

[d24454_modern]

Yeah, there weren't a lot of lore elements to vote on; just gameplay. That could easily be because D&D has more than one setting.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And then you get people like me. I like the World Axis and think it's a vast improvement on the Great Wheel - but would have ticked neither option in this poll. The D&D World Axis is a positive part of D&D for me, but certainly isn't necessary; it is not, for example, even a part of Eberron.

 

[Faolyn]

I suspect these things are very much bound by generation. The Great Wheel would probably be more important to people who came to the game in AD&D, Planescape, Torment, 3e.

Personally, while I know very little of the World Axis, what little I've read makes me prefer it to the Wheel--and I started with 2e and fell in love very quickly with Planescape.

 

[Vaalingrade]

People in general just don't mess around in the planes much, what with so many groups not going above level 10 where the planes become a) desirable (in the World Axis) or b) remotely survivable (Great Wheel). But then the tipping point are the planescape fans.

Even as a fan of the World Axis though, I'd MUCH rather have each setting have its own cosmology.

 

[TheSword]

Personally, while I know very little of the World Axis, what little I've read makes me prefer it to the Wheel--and I started with 2e and fell in love very quickly with Planescape.

Can I ask why?

 

[TheSword]

People in general just don't mess around in the planes much, what with so many groups not going above level 10 where the planes become a) desirable (in the World Axis) or b) remotely survivable (Great Wheel). But then the tipping point are the planescape fans.

Even as a fan of the World Axis though, I'd MUCH rather have each setting have its own cosmology.

Descent into Avernus enters Hell at level 5/6, which is one of the planes most inimicable to life. The resetting of CR’s and general survivability of PCs means they can easily enter the planes earlier.

 

[Faolyn]

Can I ask why?

The Great Wheel has far too many planes, each of which is infinite and yet only a miniscule fraction is ever, or can be, described or inhabited. I guess I just like the idea of each plane being the home of a deity or other super-powerful being (or small group thereof). Also, I never liked the Blood War. Or rather, I never liked it as this major thing that's in the forefront.

Before I had read up on the World Axis I had actually created something slightly similar to the World Axis, only on a tremendous mountain, and my Silver Sea was more like the River Styx in that you had to cross it to get to the afterlife.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Can I ask why?

In my case because the whole thing feels very artificial and looks like a box-ticking exercise where they've specifically added extra versions of heaven or hell just to say that they are there. What am I supposed to do with the LGG heaven of Bytopia/the Twin Paradises and how is it not redundant when put between the Seven Heavens and Elysium. Or the block between Acheron, the Nine Hells, Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus. That honestly reads to me as if someone just looked up "Hell" in a thesaurus and took five different words.

This isn't to say there are no good things on the Great Wheel - I mean for example domains of the afterlife are fine but why so many? And I like Mechanus and it's an excellent realm for RP - but it doesn't really feel like an afterlife realm the way Nirvana and just about all the original Outer Planes are.

Then there's the symmetry of it - which reinforces what are IMO morally toxic notions of "the balance between good and evil" because the cosmology is deliberately and inherently balanced or is being deliberately balanced by some twisted overgod like Ao. Even the Realms broke away from the Great wheel.

Meanwhile the World Axis, by not presenting things as equals is a lot less box-ticky than the Great Wheel.

I also start looking at it and seeing that the two closest realms to The Mortal World are The Feywild/Faerie of urban fantasy and The Shadowfell/The Shadow Realm. That immediately gives me far more pointers and inspiration for going extraplanar than the Great Wheel ever did; for all James Wyatt talked about not tripping through faerie rings in 4e the World Axis encourages it by making faerie a thing. And there are direct links indicated to The Mortal World. Then we have The Elemental Chaos. Things like the Elemental Plane of Air, being air as far as the eye can see are ultimately pretty sterile. The roiling Elemental Chaos allows you to do almost everything you can do with an elemental plane by having bubbles of that element - but is also much more able to support cities on the edge of multiple elements (rather than having para-elemental planes as the boundaries of two) or with swirling regions of them. It's harsh and dangerous but somewhere much better able to support life. And then we have the Astral Sea which supports afterlife regions without needing five separate versions of hell of which only one is The Nine Hells.

It's worth noting that the 5e Realms cosmology may call itself the Great Wheel but (like so much of 5e) it's probably more 4e than any other edition; the Feywild, the Shadowfell, and the Elemental Chaos, all invented for 4e are pretty central and the Wheel, replacing the Astral Sea, is in the distance.

 

[Vaalingrade]

This isn't to say there are no good things on the Great Wheel

Forcing myself real hard to think of one, I just come up with the fact that the positive energy plain turns your into hyper Deadpool and will pop you like a zit if you heal too much.

But that brings us right back to 'immediately lethal' as the con for a big chunk of it.

The weird thing is that WotC had a perfectly good positive energy plane model in Serra's Realm and has NEVER used it for anything.

Also, the dependence on alignment is an instant non-starter for me.