D20 saturation at an end?

[Desdichado]

Turns out he and his buddies are fanatical boardgamers, but they only play "Games most people have never heard of [i.e. no Monopoly ]". So he invites me to join them for a weekend session of Settlers of Cataan (I think that's the name),

Oh, c'mon! Settlers is huge; that barely qualifies as an indie game anymore. Now if he'd asked you to play Power Grid or Ice Pyramids, I'd have been a bit more impressed...

 

[Desdichado]

The fact of the matter is that most people who play DnD are not looking for the "exotic". Most just want your "Conan-meets-Gandalf" kinda game. They play once every week at most -- probably less, given how much damn time it takes to prepare 3.x adventures, etc. -- and are happy to play McGruff the "grumpy Scott/Dwarf"; Cleverardo the "cunning and charming Elvish thief"; etc. Stereotypes reign supreme in most "Sunday evening" games.

In short, I agree with your claim that DM-products are the ones that will last, but disagree with your claim that "unusual" settings are the way to go.

Arguably, though, the small publishers aren't really targetting "the masses." The weekend gamers, y'know, who's never heard of online D&D discussion boards and the like, are largely completely unaware of a world existing beyond Wizards of the Coast. The small party publishers who are truly successful seem to be looking for strong niche markets and then exploiting them. Look at the line-up of Green Ronin, for example: their most notable products are unique pseudo-Judeo-Christian cosmology (Book of the Righteous, Book of Fiends), or strongly pirate slanted (all the Freeport stuff), superhero slanted (Mutants & Masterminds) or otherwise more on the niche end. Malhavoc is similar: the Book(s) of Eldritch/Hallowed Might, or the Diamond Throne/Arcana Unearthed stuff -- none of that is really for the "Sunday evening" gamer, who wouldn't use that even if he knew it existed. I'd say Privateer Press too, but I think they're obviously as much (if not moreso) focused on their wildly successful miniatures game than d20 anymore anyway, although the two products do complement each other very well.

Nevertheless, there's a good market for that kinda niche stuff, I think, which is the point. A company that can mark out for itself a territory that is a bit unique, can capture a big enough market to be profitable and can continue to dominate, at least in thier chosen territory.

 

[Aaron2]

Yeah, they do. My neightbor, who's also in my game group, is pretty big boardgames guy, and introduces us to all kinds of indie board games that are surprisingly well done, professional-looking and fun to play.

Yeah, there is a groups of boardgamers that meet each week at a Borders in North Dallas. There are usually 15 to 20 players an any one game night. And this is just one of three groups in the greater Dallas area open to the public that I know of. I have, however, stopped buying my own games. It seem that by the time I play a game an like it enough to buy it, all the other guys just want to play the new game they just special ordered from Germany.


Aaron

 

[Psion]

Most people I've played with are very leery of allowing any classes or feats that aren't from WotC into their D&D games.

Because you know the likes of Nymph's Kiss is SO much better than anything a third party vendor would ever offer.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Settings are one of the few areas where a publisher can really stand out by presenting a new unique vision of what a fantasy world can be. But what makes one campaign setting different from another? I picked up the Dawnforge setting, knowing that it was one of the WotC setting search projects that didn't make the cut, and spent more than half the book trying to grok what made it different than any other relatively generic campaign world. It's not a bad product - not by a long stretch, but many of the elements within had that less than shiny and new feeling.

I disagree. Oathbound, Dragonstar, Bronosaurus Rex, Deadlands and other games that took d20 to the edge are pretty much dead, with the exception of Oathbound which is going to fewer releases with bigger books.

People cry that they want something different but what they want are different, or classic, fantasy settings. I'm sure City State of the Invincible Overlord and Blackmoor will do well just on nostalgia for a little while for example and Conan and Midnight take a standard fantasy setting either into a cool place where fantasy hasn't gone before, or are using a highly viable license where they really can't do any wrong.

 

[WizarDru]

I disagree. Oathbound, Dragonstar, Bronosaurus Rex, Deadlands and other games that took d20 to the edge are pretty much dead, with the exception of Oathbound which is going to fewer releases with bigger books.

People cry that they want something different but what they want are different, or classic, fantasy settings.

Well, I'm not sure those are the products I'd choose to highlight as 'the edge', but they may very well be the edge of well-made d20 fantasy...perhaps.

Deadlands was a conversion, so it already had limited appeal within a niche market to begin with. Dragonstar was, afaik, just D&D in a space setting. Fun idea, but again, appealing to a subset of a small market. The Brontosaurus Rex game? Knew nothing about it. Oathbound looked very snazzy and professional...but I still know nothing about it. The marketing never communicated much about its content, to me at least, so I never considered purchasing it. I already have several games up in the air...a campaign setting that's completely 'out there' will be a fun read, at best.

I love Midnight...but sincerely doubt I'll ever play it, even though I own it. I may someday use d20 Modern for something, but I've no idea when. A supplement like The Valus (of which I've made no secret of my adoration) is applicable to my core game, as a standalone setting or as a source of really good ideas.

Compare that with Ghostwalk, a supplement that sounded interesting, but I passed on, since I didn't see how it could be of much use to me.

Frankly, I think the main d20 glut ended almost a year ago, and now we're just seeing the eventual thinning of the herd from the second-tier producers, instead of the third through fifth. I mean, in 2000-2001, anyone who could make a supplement DID make a supplement, usually modules. In 2002, they started consolidating under collective distribution banners or died, modules gave way to rules supplements. In 2003, the market had collapsed considerably, and rules supplements gave way mostly to published settings and licensees....which is where we are today.

The only difference here is that most supplements produced now are of a higher quality. They are held to a higher standard, and emphasis is placed more on individual copies, since items tend to sell less, afaik. The producers who were holding on, barely making a profit, are moving on to other things. It's not a reflection of quality, but of diminshing sales, I would guess.

Case in point: I looked at the Ennies, and realized I had only heard of half of the products, and only purchased a couple of them. (and hadn't realized until the ENnies that Nocturnals was actually a M&M sourcebook).

 

[francisca]

People aren't looking for a ton of new subraces, prestige classes, feats, and unique spells for the dwarf anymore.

Anymore? Many never looked for it to begin with. I've yet to use a prestige class out of the DMG, let alone from a 3rd part d20 publisher. Same with feats and spells, as what isn't unbalancing usually doesn't fit with our game.

I think lots of people bought into d20 early and spent, spent, spent. Now many of those people are sitting there looking at the full book shelves, trying to figure out why they spent all of that money, for so little return on gameday.

I'm one of them.

Many of the d20 titles I own have seen no use at my table. Of the books I have used, I'm not so sure I got a good bang for the buck (this is of course, highly subjective). For instance, if I use 1 monster 1 time out of a book that cost me $34.95 + tax, was it worth the purchase? Well, maybe, but it had better be one of the best times I've ever had playing D&D. Simply put, the overall return on invenstment just ins't worth it anymore to me. I plan on using the material I have, selling what I don't (at a loss), and very carefully scrutinizing every RPG purchase from here on out. No more impulse buys.

I'm willing to bet that lots of other people are feeling the same way.

 

[francisca]

Never-the-less, I am going to miss working in this d20 industry.

Good luck in Board Game industry! Stone to Steel is one of the d20 titles I have gotten some good use out of, and have recommended it to several people who sounded like they could make use of it as well.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Well, I'm not sure those are the products I'd choose to highlight as 'the edge', but they may very well be the edge of well-made d20 fantasy...perhaps.

Oathbound looked very snazzy and professional...but I still know nothing about it. The marketing never communicated much about its content, to me at least, so I never considered purchasing it. I already have several games up in the air...a campaign setting that's completely 'out there' will be a fun read, at best.

Okay, seriously, how could you not know about Oathbound? I'm not the biggest fan of the setting, the prestige races and some of the other vibes I get from it aren't my style but...

Oathbound Reviews

Plains Reviews

Wrack Reviews
Arena Reviews

Waters of Akaya info And that's a free adventure to boot!

Heck, they even have a novel for the setting. A novel! Outside of Malhavoc, what other publishers have novels? (Heck, I'm hoping Chris Pramas will jump in here with mention of some type of Freeport anthology or something.)

Once again, showing that people have to have things crammed down their throats before it even shows up as a blip on their radar.

 

[Katerek]

...Many of the d20 titles I own have seen no use at my table. Of the books I have used, I'm not so sure I got a good bang for the buck (this is of course, highly subjective). For instance, if I use 1 monster 1 time out of a book that cost me $34.95 + tax, was it worth the purchase? Well, maybe, but it had better be one of the best times I've ever had playing D&D. Simply put, the overall return on invenstment just ins't worth it anymore to me. I plan on using the material I have, selling what I don't (at a loss), and very carefully scrutinizing every RPG purchase from here on out. No more impulse buys.

I'm willing to bet that lots of other people are feeling the same way...

Oh yeah, right here. After I go tback from GenCon I did a little experiment. I got out all my books and catalogued them and tallied up the cover prices. Holy shnikes! I am the 'proud'(?) owner of almost $10,000 worth of game books, of which, almsot 85% is d20.

I will say that again. $10,000.

I had no idea that I had spent that much, but irregardless, what really got to me is how much of it I actually use. I currently run 4 games. On Fridays I run a pay-to-play Star Wars game for company near where I live. It is d20 and use 4 or 5 of the Core Star Wars revised books. On Saturdays I run a Cthulu d20 book for the same company but a different set of employees. In that I use Nocturnum (sort of) and all of the Crime Scene books from Hogshead Publishing. On Sundays I alternate my personal games, one is sea based and the other is an epic game. For those two games, I almost never deviate beyond my core WoTC books.

That's messed up.

I actually enjoy reading alot of the thrid party stuff, especially Green Ronin and Hogshead, but I really don't game with it all that much.

If there is that drastic of a turn in the market coming, then I say it is for the better.