D20 saturation at an end?

[WizarDru]

Retailers move products. RPG Publishers create products. They aren't comparable.

I agree. It was Drifter Bob's analogy, not mine. Probably best just to drop the hijack, I think.

Robert Frost looked at him and without batting an eyelash replied, "Sonny, I wrote that poem about three ducks I saw in a pond. That's it! You're reading way too much into it."

Wasn't it in 'Annie Hall' where Woody Allen's character summons a movie's director (Ingmar Bergman, I think) to tell some guy in the movie line that his theories about the movie are completely wrong?

 

[Vigilance]

Well all I have to say about this entire thread is:

You can guys can be happy to see a bunch of small business go under that were just trying to entertain you all you want.

However don't pretend its anything other than that.

The "saturation" comes from the big companies not the smaller ones.

Who makes more product: Green Ronin, Mongoose, Wotc? Or the small publishers?

If you are soooooo concerned about the dreaded "glut" you should root for the big business to go under.

But no one wants that do they?

Just say what you mean then: if you're happy to see people fail at something you're afraid to try, Id at least RESPECT that.

Chuck

 

[Davelozzi]

Any more than I did for Lionel Kiddie City, FAO or Kay-Bee, when their times came.

Sorry for the slight highjack, but what happened to Kay Bee? I'm just curious as I used to work for them and I never remember hearing about anything crushing happening. The one I worked at has always remained open in my town's mall and a new KB Toy Works that opened up several years ago in a local strip mall has been around for quite a while too.

 

[Vigilance]

I kind of hope this is true.

Before anyone says "that's not what this thread is about!"

Here's the original poster's comment about companies dropping out of the market for good.

 

[Vigilance]

For me, the market got fragmented when too many publishers were putting out too many books with what I'll call much form with little substance.

And another

 

[Akrasia]

... Wasn't it in 'Annie Hall' where Woody Allen's character summons a movie's director (Ingmar Bergman, I think) to tell some guy in the movie line that his theories about the movie are completely wrong?

Not exactly. The guy in line is talking about Marshall McLuhen's (sp?) theories about the media (he was not a director, but a Canadian media theorist who came up with the quip "the message is the media" etc.). Woody realizes that this guy doesn't know what he is talking about, and brings McLuhen in to correct the fool.

 

[Drifter Bob]

If that's the way games are headed then we'll have a small number of larger game companies selling to a much larger audience and the rest of the d20/RPG community can form boutique, niche, or cheaper products.

Yeah, don't throw me in that briar patch!

Hmmm... well that's one way of looking at it. Or you could assume that everything will be made in china, dumbed down, extremely politically correct and mainstream (like the literature currently available at Walmart) homoginization and congealation... it sounds wonderful. A plastic briar patch with neoprene thorns.... see you there!

J

 

[Drifter Bob]

Where does the d20 publishing market exist...Neverland?

(snip)

Do I feel sorry for Toys 'R' Us, now what Target and Walmart are driving them to possible bankruptcy? Nope.

I find it amusing that you think the only competetors who were ever smothered by Wal-Mart were other large chains. Thats like saying McDonalds only effects Burger King. Maybe you live in some part of the country where they never had small businesses of any kind even in your childhood.

We already had a Walmart in the d20 business...they're called WotC.

Not quite yet, thought they would love to be. At the moment they are only HASBRO...



J

 

[jester47]

Anymore? Many never looked for it to begin with. I've yet to use a prestige class out of the DMG, let alone from a 3rd part d20 publisher. Same with feats and spells, as what isn't unbalancing usually doesn't fit with our game.

I think lots of people bought into d20 early and spent, spent, spent. Now many of those people are sitting there looking at the full book shelves, trying to figure out why they spent all of that money, for so little return on gameday.

I'm one of them.

Many of the d20 titles I own have seen no use at my table. Of the books I have used, I'm not so sure I got a good bang for the buck (this is of course, highly subjective). For instance, if I use 1 monster 1 time out of a book that cost me $34.95 + tax, was it worth the purchase? Well, maybe, but it had better be one of the best times I've ever had playing D&D. Simply put, the overall return on invenstment just ins't worth it anymore to me. I plan on using the material I have, selling what I don't (at a loss), and very carefully scrutinizing every RPG purchase from here on out. No more impulse buys.

I'm willing to bet that lots of other people are feeling the same way.

I too see many things I buy that get no use at my table. And I hold the same sentiment. In the end, I will only be playing 3.5. I do not see how there can be a major revision to the game without making significant changes. These changes will invalidate most of my purchases if I try to go with that change. With that in mind, I have decided to invest for the long term. The SRD is out and there and will be around as long as people keep playing it and making things for it. So, when I say I am investing for the long term, I mean the rest of my life. Eventually I think I might get around to using it all, or at least most of it. Even now however, I am culling my herd. I just gave away my ELH to a friend because I realised with 3.5s Epic rules (simpler) I would never use the ELH. Even the monsters. I don't support a separate psionics system, as I think that a sorcerer and a psionisist mechanicly would look the same. I don't believe in race books. I don't dig environment books. Some class books are good when they can be used by all classes (up Complete Warrior and Complete Adventurer, scratch complete divine and complete arcane). I like setting material that is modular (freeport is a classic example) and DM tools. I like adventures that are free of a major campaign setting.

I agree that most people want "Conan meets Gandalf" for their D&D games. the other factor is that DMs are the core customer base for non-Core Rulebooks. So, as a publisher you can't get too weird (a little weirdness is OK) and you are targeting the DMs, not the players. May case in point are Goodman Games and Necromancer Games. Goodman has put out almost 12 dungeon crawl classics. Necro has survived on a diet of modules. None of these are too outlandish. Many are pretty standard stuff. Simply put, what the DMs want are people, places and things with some plot hooks so they don't have to take time to roll them up or map them out.

Aaron.

 

[Drifter Bob]

I don't follow this. How does the mega-retailer market compare to the RPG market?

The issue is one of the effects of monopoly in a particular industry.

incidentally, by controlling the D20 license, WOTC does exercise control over what can be published in it, albiet in a limited and indirect way. Just as Wal Mart can effect the music industry by deciding which albums are offensive or not.

Another good analogy what has happened in the broadcast media, such as radio and clear channel communication, again more on the distribution side than the creation side.

J