D&D 5E Damage thread

[GMforPowergamers]

so in another thread I tried to compare how much better a fighter was to a wizard... we did 11th level and that of course is not only 1/2 through the game but by most accounts a level most don't see.

Spoiler: numbers

okay lets see if this is true... DMG says at level 11 you should have 6-8 encounters in a day.
I will go with 7, nice middle

now AC is hard to acunt for an average I am pulling 16 out of my but

Spoiler: fun fact

fun fact: a CR1 Hobgoblin has AC 18 while a CR24 Ancient Red Dragon has AC 22. That's 23 CRs of difference, but only 4 AC between them. What?

give a fighter a 20 str a +1 long sword and 3 attacks per round + action surge 1/short rest.

Prof is +4 (I think) so fighter has 4+5+1 for +10... he only needs a 5 or higher in this example that should give him a BIG head start he also crits on a 19+ so that too is a big boon. average hit deals 10 slashing (magic) and crit deals 15 slashing magic and he hits 70% of the time and crits 10% of the time... so 7+1.5= 8.5 dpr but I HATE decmils so lets round up and call that 9.

average fight is like 4 rounds, he can use his action surge lets say 2/day (so 1 or 2 short rests) so 28 rounds 3 attacks per round +6 extra attacks 86 attacks... but I mean he might get like an opp attack here or there lets just call it an even 90...

90x 8.5 is 765 damage

now I am not super great at math so everyone please check my math... but I'll call that 770 just to keep with rounding up... how many spells do I need to use to do 770 damage?

the wizard has 4/3/3/3/2/1 and can use arcane recover to call back 5...
disintegrate does 10d6+40 or 0 lets say I am smart and target someone without legendary rest and with a low to mid con save... we will give a +3 (a lot of monsters don't have that high in all saves) my DC will be based on a +1 item like fighters sword and 20 int like fighters str... so 8+1+5+4 DC 18 and so they need a 15 or higher to save so success 75ish % of the time for 75 force damage average... but thats only 1/day.
lets move to the 2 5th level spells. cone of cold does 8d8 to 2+ targets but they get a save for half... lets say 1 makes it 1 fails average damage so 36 damage to one and 18 to the other
I will do that twice and say 75+36+36+18+18=183pts and my 3 best slots are gone.
4th level Blight doest 8d8 save for half and phantasmal killer would most likely do better or even up cast AOE, but lets go with 3 blights they make teh save twice and fail once... so 36+18+18=72 bringing my total up to 255
down to ONLY 3rd level spells... fireball it is and with 3 of them I think it's only fair to say at least once I get 3 enemies in there... so 9 targets over time I will say 4 make teh save 5 fail (this you might argue is too nice to wizard) average damage is 28 or 14... 28*5 + 14*4 196 that brings my total up to 451 damage
2nd level spells I am going to skip and just up cast magic missile (not to be nice just cause I am sick of math) so 12 missiles from 2nd level and 12 from 1st level spells each missile auto hits for 3.5 force on average so 84 damage total up to 535...

but what about cantrips... how many rounds was that 16 rounds to unload my spells and there are 28 rounds so that leave 12 more for cantrips... I will take toll the dead, only target less then full hp targets and 1/3 of targets make the save... so 8* 3d12+3 damage. 22 damage 8 time is 88

so that brings the wizard with cantrips and spells all to damage (not even all the most optimal cause I got sick of math) to 623. I'm going to round that down to 620.

so that brings teh TLDR to 770 damage from the fighter and 620 damage from the wizard that is ONLY trying to do damage...

that almost looks good, 150pts of damage over the course of the day.


but wait we have that the wizard can get that close when doing what the fighter does best...

how do you DPR hold person, or charm person ending an encounter, tasha's uncontrolable laugh that might as well be hold a level sooner. how does making an enemy spell caster skip there turn do to noting since it was counter spelled?

and that's just the combat options, becuse the wizard can do OUT of combat things with those spells that change teh game in ways fighters can't... and any out of combat utility a fighter gets from creative rp or skill use the wizard can get too.

but wait at 11th level with a 20 Int how many spells can a wizard prep? 16 counting my debate about phantasmal killer or blight as preping both that is 8 spells... about 1/2 my spells preped... I can still prep shield and absorb elements and then 5 non combat spells... and if I know we are going to do no combat stuff I can trade a few combat ones for other nitch spells since I know 28 if we never found any as treasure.

and notice I didn't use arcane recovery even though I mentioned it... and I gave fighter the champion 19+ crit range but didn't give the wizard a subclass ability (some that are quite good... replace a SoD/SoS save with a low rolled portent can make a diviner 1 shot the BBEG)

basicly I showed a 11th level wizard against an 11th level fighter I gave the fighter sword and board 3 attacks and a 19+ crit range with a +1 Longsword and the wizard a +1 wand but no spells as treasure, and both a 20 prime stat. the wizard can prep 16 spells but taking only 8 as damage ones (so half) I could come pretty close (and no I didn't optimize the spell choice except at 3rd level I did take fireball) and they would know 28

end the fighter still did more over 7 encounters but not a lot more round fighter up to 770 and round the wizard down to 620 leave a shakey about 150 difference. Now I wanted to go on and do a bladesinger with 2 attacks, a warcleric with 2 attacks and the extra radiant damage at 11 and a hex blade...

BUT i am not really the go to math guy (not that I am bad but just not the best) but I know there ARE math guys and gals here... so I ask, what CAN we do for comparisons? not just 11th level like I did... can we make a (hopefully polite and not arguing) thread were we figure out what the damage outputs of average or slightly above average players are over an adventuring day?

i figure I would do rouge at 11 next (should be easy with some assumptions)

Spoiler: rogue 11

so we have been told that the designer assumed the rogue would get SA most of the time, and I am going to say that I do see most rogue DO get it... I am not accounting for a subclass, but I am going to say 1/3 of there attacks have advantage and 3/4 get sneak attack (seems desent) and I am not using rapier (best weapon i have found for them) I am useing the middle ground short sword (also cause I am lazy and it is just another D6.

20 dex at 11th level and +1 weapon is then a +10 to hit. I have been told 'quick' advantage math is a +4.XXX that most round up to +5 but I am going to call it just +4.
for an average AC I am pulling 16 out of my butt just like before and that means without advantage hits on 6+ with hits on anything but a 2.
damage is 1d6+6 (9) without SA, and +21 more (30) with SA... crits get crazy without SA it is 13 and with it is 56

average fight is like 4 rounds, that makes 24 attack rolls in 7 combats (no opp attacks this time cause 24 divided by both 4 and 3 so it makes it easy)
8 with advantage is 90% hit for 30 and 5% hit for 56 (DPR 29.8 I am rounding up to 30) 240 damage
8 more with no advantage but still SA is 70% hit for 30 and 5% hit for 56 (DPR 22.8 still rounding up to 23) 184
8 attacks with no advantage and no sneak attack (now that I write that it seems high) 70% hit for 9 and 5% hit for 13 (DPR 6.75 I am rounding up to 7) 56

so over a day a 11th level not exactly optimized or lucky rogue can deal about 480 damage... I was expecting more

so I will take my end the fighter still did more over 7 encounters but not a lot more round fighter up to 770 and round the wizard down to 620 leave a shakey about 150 difference. and add in my 480 damage from a rogue and see Wizards out damage rogue!?!! even saying caster supremacy I did NOT see that coming... but they can't keep up at all

 

[Blue]

“If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants”
--Sir Isaac Newton

DPR of classes

Spoiler: DPR of Classes

The Optimist's Guide to D&D 5e Damage by Class

Spoiler: The Optimist's Guide to D&D 5e Damage by Class

Spell Damage study

Spoiler: Spell Damage study

A Treatise on Spell Damage Ranking in 5th Edition DnD

Spoiler: A Treatise on Spell Damage Ranking in 5th Edition DnD

Hmm the forum software changed them from URLs to media links. Putting them in Spoiler tags so they don't take up a huge amount of room.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

“If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants”
--Sir Isaac Newton

DPR of classes

Spoiler: DPR of Classes

The Optimist's Guide to D&D 5e Damage by Class

Spoiler: The Optimist's Guide to D&D 5e Damage by Class

Spell Damage study

Spoiler: Spell Damage study

A Treatise on Spell Damage Ranking in 5th Edition DnD

Spoiler: A Treatise on Spell Damage Ranking in 5th Edition DnD

Hmm the forum software changed them from URLs to media links. Putting them in Spoiler tags so they don't take up a huge amount of room.

without doing this quote I didn't see the links just empty spoilers...

but thank you I will be going over this in detail later

 

[Blue]

without doing this quote I didn't see the links just empty spoilers...

but thank you I will be going over this in detail later

Because the forum converted them to Media tags, it's loading them when you look at them. So give it a bit of time after opening the tag.

 

[Oofta]

I think any white room analysis is fundamentally flawed in many ways. DPR isn't the end-all-be-all. Different situations, styles of play, items, number of encounters, on and on will affect things.

That, and it has little to do with enjoyment of play for most people in my experience.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think any white room analysis is fundamentally flawed in many ways. DPR isn't the end-all-be-all. Different situations, styles of play, items, number of encounters, on and on will affect things.

That, and it has little to do with enjoyment of play for most people in my experience.

We know, but for those of us with an interest in these things, seeing such comparison analyses are interesting and informative. Since situations can favour different characters, white-room analysis is the only fair method unless there is specific information known about the particular situation being compared.

We are aware that you have repeatedly said Fighters are fine compared to Wizards in the usual 5e game, and that you have introduced specific variant rules into your own games to reduce the capability of spellcasters compared to those usual games.
Presumably both of those decisions were arrived at after some level of analysis. This is just for the same sort of thing since our own experiences can all be so different from each other.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

i figure I would do rouge at 11 next (should be easy with some assumptions)

Spoiler: rogue 11

so we have been told that the designer assumed the rogue would get SA most of the time, and I am going to say that I do see most rogue DO get it... I am not accounting for a subclass, but I am going to say 1/3 of there attacks have advantage and 3/4 get sneak attack (seems desent) and I am not using rapier (best weapon i have found for them) I am useing the middle ground short sword (also cause I am lazy and it is just another D6.

20 dex at 11th level and +1 weapon is then a +10 to hit. I have been told 'quick' advantage math is a +4.XXX that most round up to +5 but I am going to call it just +4.
for an average AC I am pulling 16 out of my butt just like before and that means without advantage hits on 6+ with hits on anything but a 2.
damage is 1d6+6 (9) without SA, and +21 more (30) with SA... crits get crazy without SA it is 13 and with it is 56

average fight is like 4 rounds, that makes 24 attack rolls in 7 combats (no opp attacks this time cause 24 divided by both 4 and 3 so it makes it easy)
8 with advantage is 90% hit for 30 and 5% hit for 56 (DPR 29.8 I am rounding up to 30) 240 damage
8 more with no advantage but still SA is 70% hit for 30 and 5% hit for 56 (DPR 22.8 still rounding up to 23) 184
8 attacks with no advantage and no sneak attack (now that I write that it seems high) 70% hit for 9 and 5% hit for 13 (DPR 6.75 I am rounding up to 7) 56

so over a day a 11th level not exactly optimized or lucky rogue can deal about 480 damage... I was expecting more

so I will take my end the fighter still did more over 7 encounters but not a lot more round fighter up to 770 and round the wizard down to 620 leave a shakey about 150 difference. and add in my 480 damage from a rogue and see Wizards out damage rogue!?!! even saying caster supremacy I did NOT see that coming... but they can't keep up at all

I think that you might have shortchanged Rogues a little. I've found that sneak attack is much more common than 3/4 of the attacks that rogues make.
A ranged rogue will also have advantage much more often and a melee rogue will often dual-wield. The dual-wielding means that sneak attack damage should generally be calculated as if at advantage, even if the actual attacks are not, because it only needs one hit to apply full sneak attack damage, and it gets two chances of this.
Even if you ignore the actual damage of the off-hand dagger, that is still an extra 40 damage or so. And this is with the assumption of sneak attack only applies to 1 in 3 attacks, which (as you noted) is unusually low.

 

[James Gasik]

I think that you might have shortchanged Rogues a little. I've found that sneak attack is much more common than 3/4 of the attacks that rogues make.
A ranged rogue will also have advantage much more often and a melee rogue will often dual-wield. The dual-wielding means that sneak attack damage should generally be calculated as if at advantage, even if the actual attacks are not, because it only needs one hit to apply full sneak attack damage, and it gets two chances of this.
Even if you ignore the actual damage of the off-hand dagger, that is still an extra 40 damage or so. And this is with the assumption of sneak attack only applies to 1 in 3 attacks, which (as you noted) is unusually low.

Since most of the time there's going to be an ally in melee range with an enemy, sneak attack is rarely not a thing. And ranged sneak attack gets that minor action on-demand advantage ability on top of it now.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Since most of the time there's going to be an ally in melee range with an enemy, sneak attack is rarely not a thing. And ranged sneak attack gets that minor action on-demand advantage ability on top of it now.

Indeed. The maths for adding an off-hand attack with a dagger is pretty similar to just having advantage, so we can use @GMforPowergamers ' Advantage + sneak calculation for most attacks. With the added bonus that it works for ranged rogues too. (Advantage + dual-wielding adds about 3 DPR)
4 out of 24 attacks without sneak attack seems closer to my experience and is a nice round number. Lets say that 4 out of 24 attacks have advantage as well.
That puts the Rogue damage per day at 640. Still lower than the Fighter, but in the ballpark to beat a really badly-played Wizard.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think any white room analysis is fundamentally flawed in many ways.

great... any way that helps when talking about damage? I mean what is this adding here?

The idea was to talk about damage, not the whole game (or else I would have used SoD/SoS effects and 'skip hazzard/encounter' effects) this is about the thing I keep being told fighters do best (damage).