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Dangerous PC Alert

Droid101

First Post
Alert, in my new campaign, a player (who isn't new to D&D, but is new to 3rd edition) wants to play a Ghaele, using the Savage Species rules. This campaign will start at first level. At first glance, I don't have a problem with this. I just have a couple of questions.

First, Savage Species is 3.0. We run 3.5. Changing it should be easy; their gaze attack will only kill those of 5 HD or less, and their damage reduction would change. Are the stats different? (I don't have my 3.0 DMG anymore.)

What are your thoughts? At early levels, he's essentially a cleric. Instead of domain powers he gets a few extra spell-like abilites to use every day. I think this could work fine.
 

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Scion

First Post
I dont have the book with me so I'll make a few more suggestions later.

Savage species is effectively 3.25 though, it is not fully compatable with either 3.0 or 3.5.

Still, with a little (not even all that much) it can be made pretty much up and up with 3.5.

Most of the creatures in the book start off decently strong but lose power over the course of their carear, generally ending up incredibly weak.

I'll try to give a few suggestions about how to put it in 3.5 mode a bit later, along with maybe not quite as strong initially (I dont recall if it is one of the ones that started off pretty strong or not) and not so horrible later on.
 

The Souljourner

First Post
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend it. Outsiders have an insane level adjustment which makes them unsuitable for most roles in a party. At high levels you have a lot of neat abilities, but you're so fragile that you have to run away from any decent combat. If this is his first time playing 3.x, encourage him to play a more standard character. 3.x is such a huge improvement over 2nd edition, he should try enjoying the core system before branching out into weird alcoves of the rules.

In my opinion, stuff like the ghaele are there for people who have become bored with the same old 3.x over the past few years and want something new and different.

Have him play a ranger, a bard, or a monk. They get a lot of cool special abilities, but aren't so far out in left field that he'll miss the core goodness of 3.x.

-The Souljourner
 

Droid101

First Post
Thanks for the opinions, but I think I'm gonna let him play it. He's an extremely good role player, and has a great character concept.

I mean, it just wouldn't be the same if he was an aasimar.
 

Scion

First Post
I am at home now, lets see.

SRD:
GHAELE

Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Good)
Hit Dice: 10d8+20 (65 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares), fly 150 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 25 (+1 Dex, +14 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 24,or
14 (+1 Dex, +3 deflection), touch 14, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+17
Attack: +4 holy greatsword +21 melee (2d6+14/19–20) or light ray +11 ranged touch (2d12)
Full Attack: +4 holy greatsword +21/+16 melee (2d6+14/19–20) or 2 light rays +11 ranged touch (2d12)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, spells, gaze
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 10/evil and cold iron, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and petrification, lowlight vision, protective aura, resistance to cold 10 and fire 10 spell resistance 28, tongues
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +10
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 16
Skills: Concentration +15, Diplomacy +5, Escape Artist +14, Handle Animal +16, Hide +14, Knowledge (any two) +16, Listen +16, Move Silently +14, Ride +16, Sense Motive +16, Spot +16, Use Rope +1 (+3 with bindings)
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip
Environment: A chaotic good-aligned plane
Organization: Solitary, pair, or squad (3–5)
Challenge Rating: 13
Treasure: No coins; double goods; standard items
Alignment: Always chaotic good
Advancement: 11–15 HD (Medium); 16–30 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —
A ghaele can take the form of an incorporeal globe of eldritch colors, 5 feet in diameter. A ghaele is about 6 feet tall and weighs about 170 pounds.
Ghaeles speak Celestial, Infernal, and Draconic, but can communicate with almost any creature, thanks to their tongues ability.
Combat
Ghaeles who enter combat prefer direct confrontation and damaging attacks to more subtle or insidious methods. They usually fight in their humanoid form, wielding incandescent +4 holy greatswords. If a ghaele desires mobility, it assumes its globe form and blasts the enemy with light rays.
A ghaele’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and good-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Spell-Like Abilities: At will—aid, charm monster (DC 17), color spray (DC 14), comprehend languages, continual flame, cure light wounds (DC 14), dancing lights, detect evil, detect thoughts (DC 15), disguise self, dispel magic, hold monster (DC 18), greater invisibility (self only), major image (DC 16), see invisibility, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only); 1/day—chain lightning (DC 19), prismatic spray (DC 20), wall of force. Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Spells: Ghaeles in humanoid form can cast divine spells as 14th-level clerics. A ghaele has access to two of the following domains: Air, Animal, Chaos, Good, or Plant (plus any others from its deity). The save DCs are Wisdom-based.
Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/7/7/6/5/4/4/3; save DC 13 + spell level): 0—cure minor wounds, detect magic, guidance, light, resistance, virtue; 1st—bless, calm animals*, command, divine favor, obscuring mist, sanctuary, shield of faith; 2nd—aid, align weapon, bear ’s endurance, hold animal*, lesser restoration, remove paralysis, zone of truth; 3rd—daylight, gaseous form*, prayer, remove curse, searing light, water breathing; 4th—death ward, dismissal, divine power, restoration, summon nature’s ally IV (animal)*; 5th—control winds*, flame strike, raise dead, true seeing; 6th—banishment, blade barrier, chain lightning*, heal; 7th—animal shapes*, holy word, summon monster VII.
*Domain spell. Domains: Air and Animal.
Gaze (Su): In humanoid form—slay evil creatures of 5 or less HD, range 60 feet, Will DC 18 negates. Even if the save succeeds, the creature is affected as though by a fear spell for 2d10 rounds. Nonevil creatures, and evil creatures with more than 5 HD, must succeed on a DC 18 Will save or suffer the fear effect. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Light Ray (Ex): A ghaele in globe form can project light rays with a range of 300 feet. This attack overcomes damage reduction of any type.
Alternate Form (Su): A ghaele can shift between its humanoid and globe forms as a standard action. In humanoid form, it cannot fly or use its light rays, but it can use its gaze attack and spell-like abilities, make physical attacks, and cast spells. In globe form, it can fly, use its light rays, and use spell-like abilities, but it cannot cast spells or use its gaze attack. The globe form is incorporeal, and the ghaele has no Strength score while in that form.
A ghaele remains in one form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does the ghaele revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability, however, reveals both forms simultaneously.
Protective Aura (Su): Against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures, this ability provides a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws to anyone within 20 feet of the ghaele. Otherwise, it functions as a magic circle against evil effect and a lesser globe of invulnerability, both with a radius of 20 feet (caster level equals ghaele’s HD). (The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in a ghaele’s statistics block.)
Tongues (Su): Ghaeles can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.


This guy has a lot of stuff!

Now, to be fair, whenever I make a savage species of a creature it rarely winds up ending just like the normal creature. This is because of several reasons but the biggest of which is that not everything that is an npc is made for a pc and the other way around.

So here goes a bit of a try ;)

If you have savage species the progression they have there will work pretty well. I would change a few things though.

First off, I would move spells to third level and make them cast at Class level -2 (racial class level that is). This will help keep him from overwhelming the other party members in power.

Secondly, change spell resistance. Give them SR of class level +5 then later on (say around level 12) move it up to class level +8.

Thirdly, make sure the spell like abilities line up as you want them. Take out ones you feel are not proper for the character, add in others that are. Remember, it doesnt have to be exactly the same! Play around, have some fun with it.

Fourth, Gaze. I was going to suggest every 5 levels for one extra hd of baddy able to be killed, but the version they have in the progression is fine also.

Fifth, say around 5th level, grant DR of 5/Evil or Cold iron, 10th level 5/Evil and Cold iron, 15th 10/Evil and Cold iron.

In addition to the above I would suggest adding in 4 more hd. one at level 7, one at level 10, one at 18th and one at 20th. This makes the hp only slightly horrible, the saves still managable at higher levels.

If they are still seeming a bit too powerful (which they very well might) have the character turn in some feats. I would suggest that the first level feat be burned away, the 6th level one, and the 15th level one. While it sucks to lose those feats, it may be necissary to help alleviate some of the problems ;)
 

Droid101

First Post
Scion said:
I am at home now, lets see.
snip...
;)
Thanks for the pointers. I know in SS they advance the HD you can kill with the gaze, but the MM version stops them at 5 HD creatures. Don't know which I would go with.

But yeah, I'll definitely take these suggestions into consideration. Thanks!
 

Sejs

First Post
Spell-Like Abilities: At will—aid, charm monster (DC 17), color spray (DC 14), comprehend languages, continual flame, cure light wounds (DC 14), dancing lights, detect evil, detect thoughts (DC 15), disguise self, dispel magic, hold monster (DC 18), greater invisibility (self only), major image (DC 16), see invisibility, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only)

And a 14th level cleric. Unlimited downtime healing (and 14th level cleric for combat healing), unlimited dispel magics, unlimited greater invis, greater teleport, charm monster and hold monster.


Fly forward as a globe, (greater) invisible, hold them 'till they lock up, then CDG. If things get fuzzy (like say someone has see invis up or the like), teleport out, come back, dispel the problem people and repeat.
 


DarkJester

First Post
I'll chime in as well, to say they are very powerful but not overwhelmingly so. Their low hp isn't to much of a draw back as they can have absolutely massive AC. They have a 28 armor class just counting natural armor and the aura of protection. If you throw some bracers of armor and or other armor class enhancing items on there, it gets ugly quick. And as Sejs mentioned, they have some very powerful spell-like abilities.

On the other hand, they sort of dip into various roles. Their high strength is partially negated from their low base attack bonus. They have clerical casting, but not as good as a straight cleric. A straight cleric will be better in melee (heavy armor, shield, stronger and more buffs). The Ghaele's armor class bonus can be mimiced via polymorph magic, or amulet of natural armor and a ring of protection. The Ghaele's strong spell-like abilities make up the difference in my opinion.

Do you mind sharing your players concept?
 
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