Edena_of_Neith
First Post
I began playing Dungeons and Dragons when I was 10 years old, in 1977.
Initially, those I played with were my older brothers.
Then, my friends at Middle School (grades 6th, 7th, and 8th.)
Then, some friends of High School Age.
And finally, young adults.
Later, I would play for a while with High School Age gamers briefly, and gain a second dose of information that I already knew.
- - -
This is not a flame war thread.
This is not going to be a flame thread.
This is not going to be a contentious thread.
This is not going to be an argumentative thread.
Why?
Because:
1) If it is the moderators will close it.
2) I am going to post this ONE post, and then abandon this thread - what I have to say, will be said HERE, in this post, and no further words will be necessary.
- - -
Dark Fantasy.
A very controversial subject.
Indeed, those two words are in themselves very controversial.
I think we all know this, and the controversy has erupted into flames and very SERIOUS destruction of friendships and relationships in other threads.
That will not happen here.
If it even starts to happen, I ask the moderators to close this thread immediately.
- - -
Dark Fantasy.
The enjoyment of roleplaying certain actions.
Actions such as mass murder, rape, torture, mass destruction, expressions of hatred, expressions of anger, expressions of despair. And many, many similar things.
The enjoyment of playing of certain kinds of people.
Murderers. Rapists. Arsonists. Perverted beings. Psychopaths. Insane people. Sadists. People corrupted by the Dark. People openly embracing the Dark. Horrific monsters. And other types like this.
The enjoyment of watching (whether it be in a D&D game, or on television, or any other form of watching) acts that depict murder, rape, torture, destruction, Darkness, and many more things of this sort.
Scary, isn't it?
Now, what I have to say is not opinion.
I repeat, it is ... not ... opinion.
Got that? NOT opinion.
It is what I SAW, what I HEARD, what I was required to be a part of, when I was a teen-aged player.
And REMEMBER, folks, that during MY TEEN YEARS I played ONLY Good characters!!
I was the SOLE exception to the rule I am about to present below, in that I ran only good characters.
- - -
The 12, 13, 14, and 15 year old players were all male.
Not that this is an insult to females; I think any female would have been very frightened by what was occurring.
They used language.
They used ALL the language known to Man.
They INVENTED new language, unknown to Man, when they ran out of known language.
The only words they used that I can repeat, on the ENBoards, are words like: dang, rats, and nuts.
If I put down, here on the ENBoards, what these young teen-agers actually said (in a public school system, at that), I would be permanently removed from the ENBoards.
And if I truly put down in words what they said, even on Nutkinland - where ANYTHING goes - it would mark me as being excessive and crude.
Think of every foul, vile, and obscene word you know of, and know that these were the words used CASUALLY.
The words they came up with, for the truly bad situations, were creative epitaphs that combined and improved on said foul words, to create a new and higher standard of what the word foul means.
There is no soap in the world that could wash out the mouths of these teen-agers.
Remember MacBeth? Remember how he said that his hands were stained with blood? And if he put them in the ocean, his hands would not be cleaned - but the whole OCEAN would turn red from the blood?
Well, the equivalent of that is true, concerning the language of these young teenaged boys.
- - -
But if you thought their language was bad, that was NOTHING compared to what they had their characters DO.
Neutral Evil was not just the favorite alignment to play - it was THE alignment to play.
They all said: With Neutral Evil, you can do anything you want, anyway you want, anytime you want, anyhow you want, without any need to explain or rationalize, and without the need to answer to anyone or anything (well, actually, they simply said - you can do anything you want. But that is what they meant, of course.)
TRUST ME when I say they put that ethos to good (or, in this case, evil) use.
I watched the populations of entire cities, and entire nations, be annihilated simply because a powerful PC acted on a whim.
I watched the rape (repeatedly, and much more I will NOT go into on this board) of women, and of men also.
I watched as torture methods were devised that would put Vlad Dracul and the Inquisition to shame (and I am learned on my History here, so I can make the comparison.)
I watched as enemies were killed, and then pulped (that is, you beat on them with your sword until they are reduced to tiny fragments, then you go on beating the fragments until only goo remains.)
I watched Player Characters skyrocket in level.
Level 10? That was nothing.
Level 20? A good start.
Level 30? Reasonable.
Level 40? Now we're talking!
Level 50? About time you brought yourself up to strength, kid!
Level 75? Powerful. But not so powerful I can't take him down!
Level 100? Ok, he's a cheater. I GOTTA take him down, just on the principle of it.
Or how about level 750?
I saw a DM create an NPC of this level.
She attended a council of all the super-powerful beings, including the Player Characters.
How about nuclear weapons? Those were popular.
How about starships?
How about antimatter bombs?
How about 12th level spells almost two decades before Netheril was published?
For that matter, how about 19th level spells?
How about 1,500 attacks per round (2nd Edition)
How about 300 spells per round?
How about being able to move at Lightspeed?
How about ULTIMATE death spells (no save, no Magic Resistance, no Contingencies, and most certainly no Clones!)
How about Morganti Blades being as common as ordinary weapons?
One SCRATCH from a Morganti Blade, and your character is dead, his soul is devoured, and he is finished.
NO resurrection, NO wishes, and NO Godly aid (including such beings as the High God, and Ao) can bring him back.
How about 1 quadrillion gold pieces in your personal treasure hoard?
- - -
Of course, when the characters took over the world, reducing ALL of it to serfdom, and remaking it as they pleased, they got bored.
So, they fought each other.
I watched as the Flanaess (the World of Greyhawk Setting) was totally destroyed by the characters, as they fought each other.
Everything that was in the IR - all the excesses and ridiculous things - were here, but here they were SERIOUS (whereas, in the IR it was meant humorously and we were deliberately being silly)
- - -
The following is opinion.
Unlike the above, the following is not fact, but opinion. OPINION.
Now, you will pass judgement on these youthful gamers, I am willing to bet.
But WHAT that judgement will be, is yours to decide, and I cannot guess what you will say.
I am guessing some of you will say it is horrible and frightful.
I am guessing some of you will say it is healthy and normal.
I am guessing some of you will say it is completely irrelevant.
But whatever your response, consider this:
The behavior of teen-aged males is a given.
Insurance companies know very well what they risk when they insure teen-aged male drivers.
Every father knows the situation when a teen-aged male asks his daughter out on a date at midnight.
(For that matter, I am guessing every father knows what the situation is, when a teen-aged male takes his daughter out on a date, period.)
Malls know the nature of teen-agers.
Anyone who has visited a pool-hall, knows the nature of teen-agers.
Any (unfortunate) parent who comes home after a teen-aged party (read: 50 to 100 people in a house designed for 5, with the grace of elephants, the caution of Evil Canevil, and the maturity level - well, the maturity level of anyone roaring drunk, for starters) and sees the ruin of their home, knows the nature of teen-agers.
EVERYONE knows the nature of teen-agers, especially teen-aged boys.
This is not a denunciation of teen-agers.
Teen-agers, are teen-agers. They are, what they are.
- - -
Dungeons and Dragons, when it was created, was about killing.
Killing.
That's right, folks. Killing.
Killing is how you obtained experience points, and thus levels.
Killing is how you gained treasure.
Killing, is how you won the scenario.
Killing, made you triumphant and made you feel good!
Killing, was what it was all about.
Now, even now experience - in 3rd edition - is given out for overcoming challenges, and overcoming challenges is heavily (not entirely, but heavily) about killing.
Do you see experience points given out for drinking milk? (2 experience points, per glass drunk.)
Do you see experience points given out for walking? (10 experience points, per mile walked.)
Do you see experience points given out, for talking with others? (20 experience points, per half-hour of talking.)
For that matter, do you see experience points being given out for sex? (I'm sure the teen-aged males would love that ... but I am also sure the very idea offends the female readers of this article.)
They never gave out experience for any of the above when I was young.
They also never gave out experience for allowing monsters to live, outthinking monsters (with rare exceptions), coming up with a non-violent answer to the situation (except in the rarest of situations), helping two people to fall in love, helping a town rebuild or build new structures, construction of beautiful monuments, helping people, mapping out and exploring wild land, or any of the other truly constructive things that can be done in roleplaying.
They give out experience points TODAY, for these things, but they did not do so THEN, and especially not the teen-agers.
- - -
So ...
I take a book and give it to a teen-aged male.
The book says to the teen-aged male: fantasize.
The book also says to the teen-aged male: This fantasy is based upon killing, and all the advancement (read: all the fun) comes out of killing.
So, what happened?
What happened, was what WOULD happen.
Take a game based on killing, and give it to teen-aged males, and you get ...
Dark Fantasy.
Murder, rape, torture, mass destruction, all of it.
- - -
It is, in my opinion, a simple Matter of Fact.
Teen-aged boys, are teen-aged boys.
A game based on killing, is a game based on killing.
Put the two together, and you get Dark Fantasy.
For right or wrong, better or worse, when you encourage a teen-aged boy to fantasize about killing, the result is going to be Dark Fantasy.
- - -
One IMPORTANT thing is the ability to distinguish between reality and fantasy, in my opinion.
If a person can do that, it is one thing.
If a person CANNOT fully do that, then - in my opinion - there is a very serious problem.
- - -
Now, as to whether Dark Fantasy is good or bad, right or wrong, healthy or unhealthy, terrorism or not terrorism, sin or not sin - I am NOT giving my opinions on this matter.
Understand? MY opinions on the matter I AM KEEPING TO MYSELF.
Do not infere ANYTHING from the article above concerning my opinion on Dark Fantasy.
Do not ask me my opinion.
Do not hope for an answer, if you do ask.
I wish NO PART of the disgusting, unbecoming, and highly destructive Flame War that I have had the misfortune of witnessing, concerning personal opinions on this subject.
The POINT of THIS ARTICLE is to highlight my experiences in dealing with teen-aged boys, when I was a teen-ager myself.
To present my experiences with their behavior, their language, and what it was I saw them fantasize about.
To present the opinion that teen-aged boys they are, what they are - for good or bad.
To explain what D&D appeared to be, to me, at that time.
And to explain what I think would naturally happen if you took:
A: Teen-aged boys
B: A game based on killing
And C: Brought them together.
The result?
Dark Fantasy.
-
Edena_of_Neith
Initially, those I played with were my older brothers.
Then, my friends at Middle School (grades 6th, 7th, and 8th.)
Then, some friends of High School Age.
And finally, young adults.
Later, I would play for a while with High School Age gamers briefly, and gain a second dose of information that I already knew.
- - -
This is not a flame war thread.
This is not going to be a flame thread.
This is not going to be a contentious thread.
This is not going to be an argumentative thread.
Why?
Because:
1) If it is the moderators will close it.
2) I am going to post this ONE post, and then abandon this thread - what I have to say, will be said HERE, in this post, and no further words will be necessary.
- - -
Dark Fantasy.
A very controversial subject.
Indeed, those two words are in themselves very controversial.
I think we all know this, and the controversy has erupted into flames and very SERIOUS destruction of friendships and relationships in other threads.
That will not happen here.
If it even starts to happen, I ask the moderators to close this thread immediately.
- - -
Dark Fantasy.
The enjoyment of roleplaying certain actions.
Actions such as mass murder, rape, torture, mass destruction, expressions of hatred, expressions of anger, expressions of despair. And many, many similar things.
The enjoyment of playing of certain kinds of people.
Murderers. Rapists. Arsonists. Perverted beings. Psychopaths. Insane people. Sadists. People corrupted by the Dark. People openly embracing the Dark. Horrific monsters. And other types like this.
The enjoyment of watching (whether it be in a D&D game, or on television, or any other form of watching) acts that depict murder, rape, torture, destruction, Darkness, and many more things of this sort.
Scary, isn't it?
Now, what I have to say is not opinion.
I repeat, it is ... not ... opinion.
Got that? NOT opinion.
It is what I SAW, what I HEARD, what I was required to be a part of, when I was a teen-aged player.
And REMEMBER, folks, that during MY TEEN YEARS I played ONLY Good characters!!
I was the SOLE exception to the rule I am about to present below, in that I ran only good characters.
- - -
The 12, 13, 14, and 15 year old players were all male.
Not that this is an insult to females; I think any female would have been very frightened by what was occurring.
They used language.
They used ALL the language known to Man.
They INVENTED new language, unknown to Man, when they ran out of known language.
The only words they used that I can repeat, on the ENBoards, are words like: dang, rats, and nuts.
If I put down, here on the ENBoards, what these young teen-agers actually said (in a public school system, at that), I would be permanently removed from the ENBoards.
And if I truly put down in words what they said, even on Nutkinland - where ANYTHING goes - it would mark me as being excessive and crude.
Think of every foul, vile, and obscene word you know of, and know that these were the words used CASUALLY.
The words they came up with, for the truly bad situations, were creative epitaphs that combined and improved on said foul words, to create a new and higher standard of what the word foul means.
There is no soap in the world that could wash out the mouths of these teen-agers.
Remember MacBeth? Remember how he said that his hands were stained with blood? And if he put them in the ocean, his hands would not be cleaned - but the whole OCEAN would turn red from the blood?
Well, the equivalent of that is true, concerning the language of these young teenaged boys.
- - -
But if you thought their language was bad, that was NOTHING compared to what they had their characters DO.
Neutral Evil was not just the favorite alignment to play - it was THE alignment to play.
They all said: With Neutral Evil, you can do anything you want, anyway you want, anytime you want, anyhow you want, without any need to explain or rationalize, and without the need to answer to anyone or anything (well, actually, they simply said - you can do anything you want. But that is what they meant, of course.)
TRUST ME when I say they put that ethos to good (or, in this case, evil) use.
I watched the populations of entire cities, and entire nations, be annihilated simply because a powerful PC acted on a whim.
I watched the rape (repeatedly, and much more I will NOT go into on this board) of women, and of men also.
I watched as torture methods were devised that would put Vlad Dracul and the Inquisition to shame (and I am learned on my History here, so I can make the comparison.)
I watched as enemies were killed, and then pulped (that is, you beat on them with your sword until they are reduced to tiny fragments, then you go on beating the fragments until only goo remains.)
I watched Player Characters skyrocket in level.
Level 10? That was nothing.
Level 20? A good start.
Level 30? Reasonable.
Level 40? Now we're talking!
Level 50? About time you brought yourself up to strength, kid!
Level 75? Powerful. But not so powerful I can't take him down!
Level 100? Ok, he's a cheater. I GOTTA take him down, just on the principle of it.
Or how about level 750?
I saw a DM create an NPC of this level.
She attended a council of all the super-powerful beings, including the Player Characters.
How about nuclear weapons? Those were popular.
How about starships?
How about antimatter bombs?
How about 12th level spells almost two decades before Netheril was published?
For that matter, how about 19th level spells?
How about 1,500 attacks per round (2nd Edition)
How about 300 spells per round?
How about being able to move at Lightspeed?
How about ULTIMATE death spells (no save, no Magic Resistance, no Contingencies, and most certainly no Clones!)
How about Morganti Blades being as common as ordinary weapons?
One SCRATCH from a Morganti Blade, and your character is dead, his soul is devoured, and he is finished.
NO resurrection, NO wishes, and NO Godly aid (including such beings as the High God, and Ao) can bring him back.
How about 1 quadrillion gold pieces in your personal treasure hoard?
- - -
Of course, when the characters took over the world, reducing ALL of it to serfdom, and remaking it as they pleased, they got bored.
So, they fought each other.
I watched as the Flanaess (the World of Greyhawk Setting) was totally destroyed by the characters, as they fought each other.
Everything that was in the IR - all the excesses and ridiculous things - were here, but here they were SERIOUS (whereas, in the IR it was meant humorously and we were deliberately being silly)
- - -
The following is opinion.
Unlike the above, the following is not fact, but opinion. OPINION.
Now, you will pass judgement on these youthful gamers, I am willing to bet.
But WHAT that judgement will be, is yours to decide, and I cannot guess what you will say.
I am guessing some of you will say it is horrible and frightful.
I am guessing some of you will say it is healthy and normal.
I am guessing some of you will say it is completely irrelevant.
But whatever your response, consider this:
The behavior of teen-aged males is a given.
Insurance companies know very well what they risk when they insure teen-aged male drivers.
Every father knows the situation when a teen-aged male asks his daughter out on a date at midnight.
(For that matter, I am guessing every father knows what the situation is, when a teen-aged male takes his daughter out on a date, period.)
Malls know the nature of teen-agers.
Anyone who has visited a pool-hall, knows the nature of teen-agers.
Any (unfortunate) parent who comes home after a teen-aged party (read: 50 to 100 people in a house designed for 5, with the grace of elephants, the caution of Evil Canevil, and the maturity level - well, the maturity level of anyone roaring drunk, for starters) and sees the ruin of their home, knows the nature of teen-agers.
EVERYONE knows the nature of teen-agers, especially teen-aged boys.
This is not a denunciation of teen-agers.
Teen-agers, are teen-agers. They are, what they are.
- - -
Dungeons and Dragons, when it was created, was about killing.
Killing.
That's right, folks. Killing.
Killing is how you obtained experience points, and thus levels.
Killing is how you gained treasure.
Killing, is how you won the scenario.
Killing, made you triumphant and made you feel good!
Killing, was what it was all about.
Now, even now experience - in 3rd edition - is given out for overcoming challenges, and overcoming challenges is heavily (not entirely, but heavily) about killing.
Do you see experience points given out for drinking milk? (2 experience points, per glass drunk.)
Do you see experience points given out for walking? (10 experience points, per mile walked.)
Do you see experience points given out, for talking with others? (20 experience points, per half-hour of talking.)
For that matter, do you see experience points being given out for sex? (I'm sure the teen-aged males would love that ... but I am also sure the very idea offends the female readers of this article.)
They never gave out experience for any of the above when I was young.
They also never gave out experience for allowing monsters to live, outthinking monsters (with rare exceptions), coming up with a non-violent answer to the situation (except in the rarest of situations), helping two people to fall in love, helping a town rebuild or build new structures, construction of beautiful monuments, helping people, mapping out and exploring wild land, or any of the other truly constructive things that can be done in roleplaying.
They give out experience points TODAY, for these things, but they did not do so THEN, and especially not the teen-agers.
- - -
So ...
I take a book and give it to a teen-aged male.
The book says to the teen-aged male: fantasize.
The book also says to the teen-aged male: This fantasy is based upon killing, and all the advancement (read: all the fun) comes out of killing.
So, what happened?
What happened, was what WOULD happen.
Take a game based on killing, and give it to teen-aged males, and you get ...
Dark Fantasy.
Murder, rape, torture, mass destruction, all of it.
- - -
It is, in my opinion, a simple Matter of Fact.
Teen-aged boys, are teen-aged boys.
A game based on killing, is a game based on killing.
Put the two together, and you get Dark Fantasy.
For right or wrong, better or worse, when you encourage a teen-aged boy to fantasize about killing, the result is going to be Dark Fantasy.
- - -
One IMPORTANT thing is the ability to distinguish between reality and fantasy, in my opinion.
If a person can do that, it is one thing.
If a person CANNOT fully do that, then - in my opinion - there is a very serious problem.
- - -
Now, as to whether Dark Fantasy is good or bad, right or wrong, healthy or unhealthy, terrorism or not terrorism, sin or not sin - I am NOT giving my opinions on this matter.
Understand? MY opinions on the matter I AM KEEPING TO MYSELF.
Do not infere ANYTHING from the article above concerning my opinion on Dark Fantasy.
Do not ask me my opinion.
Do not hope for an answer, if you do ask.
I wish NO PART of the disgusting, unbecoming, and highly destructive Flame War that I have had the misfortune of witnessing, concerning personal opinions on this subject.
The POINT of THIS ARTICLE is to highlight my experiences in dealing with teen-aged boys, when I was a teen-ager myself.
To present my experiences with their behavior, their language, and what it was I saw them fantasize about.
To present the opinion that teen-aged boys they are, what they are - for good or bad.
To explain what D&D appeared to be, to me, at that time.
And to explain what I think would naturally happen if you took:
A: Teen-aged boys
B: A game based on killing
And C: Brought them together.
The result?
Dark Fantasy.
-
Edena_of_Neith
Last edited:
