Dark Sun in Dungeon #110

[Alzrius]

And I'm not even going to go into the legal issues here. The "Official" fan sites had a contract with WotC that they had exclusive authority to publish any 3rd party info on their setting. Since Dragon and Dungeon are now no longer owned by WotC anything they issue is considered 3rd party.

Contract nothing. Those fan sites were given permission to produce new material for discontinued campaigns, and that material would be considered official. That's it. Nothing in there says WotC can't make new material for those world. And contrary to what people seem to think, just because the magazines are now published by Paizo doesn't mean WotC has any less of a hand in them. The Paizo people regularly talk to the guys at WotC about the magazines' contents, much more so than anyone at any of the fan sites do. They're not 3rd party.

Oh yeah it really ticks me off that Paizo insists on puting the label "100% Official D&D" on Dragon, specifically in this case.

Because they are! They put that tag on there to silence the people who somehow that that just because the publishing was out-sourced to save costs, that that somehow meant the magazines weren't official anymore, despite still being heavily involved with WotC. That tag settled the issue, and rightly so.

 

[Mach2.5]

How many times do we have to go through the same stuff? Flavor text doesn't need to be converted. You want phlogiston back in the game BAM it's in there. You want crystal spheres? Wonderful they're in there. The minigame was good IMO as it gave basic rules and a nice small interesting setting.

That's very much a two-way argument. If you don't want crystal spheres and the phlogiston, then, well BAM, take em out. Its sometimes easier to remove something from a setting you don't care for that it is to incorporate new aspects while covering the important ramification issues. Removing things like crystal spheres and the flow creates few if any rules changes (besides removing spells associated with them). Adding them though, does create a host of issues. It would have been a bit better I think to have added them to cover bases. Not just as a personal preference, but from a design standpoint.

 

[Staffan]

Actually, Spatula was probably right in that the comparrison wasn't that good at all. You could have a DS game without the Gray and the Black (since they mostly related to planar travel), but you cannot have an SJ game without crystal spheres and the phlogiston (you can try, but then you get that crappy mini-game again).

Personally, I think the minigame captured the most important part of Spelljammer: flying around in space using magically propelled wooden ships, usually shaped like fish or insects. I mean, I like the crystal spheres too, but when your page count is as limited as it was in the Polyhedron minigame, crystal spheres would probably be one of the first things I'd remove too.

If I was remaking Spelljammer, and had a big book or box at my disposal, I would probably focus on a single sphere too. I would probably still mention the crystal sphere stuff, though - something like "About twice as far out from the sun as the farthest planetary orbit, the system is surrounded by a virtually impenetrable sphere made from a dark material reminiscent of crystal. In certain places, there are portals in the sphere allowing one to enter or leave, and spells exist that allow one to create an artificial portal for a short time. Outside the sphere, space is filled with a substance called the phlogiston or the flow. This substance is extremely flammable, and there are currents through it. Some of these currents lead to other crystal spheres." Then some stuff on the nature of the phlogiston, brief descriptions of other spheres (both specific ones and some generic stuff, including the weirdness possible). All in all, maybe a page or two. Of course, it would be a great thing to expand on in supplements, but in the core book I'd go light on it.

To my knowledge, there's at least 4 major conversions of Dark Sun out there:The Burnt World of Athas , Strutinan's conversion, Shei-Nad's d20 style conversion at The World of Athas, and one other that I've lost track of, not to mention the incomplete conversion by Steffan here at Enworld (as an aside, hope you haven't given up on it yet, Steffan ).

Well, I decided to just do the bits where I didn't particularly like the way Athas.org did it (spellcasting classes, some feats and races), and managed to finish the character generation guidelines. Then I kind of got distracted - I often do

 

[Ranger REG]

And I'm not even going to go into the legal issues here.

:\ But...

The "Official" fan sites had a contract with WotC that they had exclusive authority to publish any 3rd party info on their setting.

:\ With ridiculously, unsubstantiated rumor to follow...

Since Dragon and Dungeon are now no longer owned by WotC anything they issue is considered 3rd party.

Having done that little venting exercise, I'm glad that some attention is being given to these abandoned worlds - I only wish that Paizo had involved the "Official" fansites more prior to proceeding down the path they chose. Oh yeah it really ticks me off that Paizo insists on puting the label "100% Official D&D" on Dragon, specifically in this case. Also the info they include is generally not OGC so people can't 'freely' use it.

Fortunately, the "100% Dungeons & Dragons label is now replaced by the trademarked Dungeons & Dragons logo.

Now, if Hasbro -- the new publisher of D&D, as you claimed -- that Dragon and Dungeon magazines are unofficial, wouldn't you think they would NOT allow Paizo to use their D&D trademark in such a commercial enterprise?

Don't overthink. Just read the standard TRADEMARK law.

AFAIC, that "official" FAN site you praise only publish unofficial, noncanon DS material, unless otherwise stated by WotC today, or sometime in this millenium.

Oh, and I really do not care about the critcisms for the Dark Sun being treated as part of a promotion for the XPsiHB or for Dragon and Dungeon magazines (with the trademarked D&D logo). Or the fact it may possibly not be the REAL DS.

I...
Don't...
Care...

I am glad we have some kind of update, a revival of DS, here and now. And I am buying those issues off the store shelves. So boycott it if you want. I have already dealt with Tolkien Purists before. I can handle DS Fundamentalists.

 

[SSquirrel]

That's very much a two-way argument. If you don't want crystal spheres and the phlogiston, then, well BAM, take em out. Its sometimes easier to remove something from a setting you don't care for that it is to incorporate new aspects while covering the important ramification issues. Removing things like crystal spheres and the flow creates few if any rules changes (besides removing spells associated with them). Adding them though, does create a host of issues. It would have been a bit better I think to have added them to cover bases. Not just as a personal preference, but from a design standpoint.

The Spelljammer conversion ran from pages 15-65, counting the cover art for the section. 50 pages. There's 2 full page, 7 1/3 page, 5 half page pieces of art and 1 page of ads in there. This does NOT count the art for the ships. The first 3 pages are cover, intro, credits and table of contents...plus a 1/2 page piece of art. They probably could have cut out say 1 of the full page pieces of art (Ashen most likely) and fit all of the info for crystal spheres and phlogiston there, but they didn't.

What is really to cover? Phlogiston burns, the spheres are there. They use the term mini campaign for a reason. It's a small evrsion of the campaign and enough info to run something based in a particular area in this case. If you need to run something beyond that add it back in. As it is, I'm perfectly happy without the info. From a design standpoint it's extraneous stuff anyway. The reason for phlogiston is to give an early science feel to spelljamming, but this one is more swashbuckling even than 2E SJ was, so skip the science angle and just have fun, which the mini campaign does.

Quick glance in my War Captains Companion gave maybe a half page-1 page about phlogiston and crystal spheres...no game stats, all flavor text. Hell anyone who was interested in the mini campaign probably did a websearch and found out about those things and either thought they were cool and incorporated them or ignored it as lame.

Yes it was a decision that a either/or kinda situation but I prefer the way they went b/c it meant they could add more info about the campaign setting, prestige classes, equipment etc. Give me the stuff that REALLY matters and let ME worry about the rest.

Hagen

REG>I have to agree with ya about purists in general. Granted I'm a hardcore Tolkien nut, but I still really enjoyed the movies. TTT was the main "huh?" factor heh. Dark Sun, SpellJammer, Tolkien...there's always going to be people for ANY system who think it should be unchanged basically. Which is why we still have 2E floating around.

 

[SSquirrel]

AFAIC, that "official" FAN site you praise only publish unofficial, noncanon DS material, unless otherwise stated by WotC today, or sometime in this millenium.

It's really just like the Extended Universe for Star Wars...everything you see in the EU is canon UNTIL Lucas contradicts it. Like his stating that all of the troopers in the original trilogy were all clones nullifies certains tales that have been told in some of the books. Some of the things rumored to be in Ep 3 will nullify stuff from the books as well. Also, apparently Peter Mayhew's contract for episode 3 (He's showing up as Chewie) calls him to appear in SW7-9 as well, so looks like Lucas really IS making more movies. This could well nullify MOST of the EU books including the New Jedi Order series which has decimated the galaxy 20+ years after Jedi.

So anything in Dragon/Dungeon are official versions of DS for 3.5 and anything else is now strictly fan based. Official fansite is kind of misleading that way. You can ALWAYS be overruled by the folks with the copyright

Oh, and I really do not care about the critcisms for the Dark Sun being treated as part of a promotion for the XPsiHB or for Dragon and Dungeon magazines (with the trademarked D&D logo). Or the fact it may possibly not be the REAL DS.

Hey I'm all for it. Why the heck WOULDN'T they use a revised bit of Dark Sun to promote the new version of the Psi Handbook? DS was the ONLY D&D game world they've ever made that really did much with Psionics at all. They should definitely milk it, altho hopefully they'll also do a good conversion that the fans will be pleased with. I was hoping these issues were in store so I could look at them but sadly not yet.

Hagen

 

[JEL]

It wasn't just the not mentioning the phlogiston or crystal spheres. The mini-game completely abandoned the aristolean physics of the setting along with everything else that separated Spelljammer from other fantasy space settings. The mini-game was no more Spelljammer than Aether & Flux is or Dark Space. Hell, I even agree that focusing on one sphere is a smart way to go and something that the original game should have done, but re-writing every last detail and then having the gaul to tack the same name on it is just isn't right. If you're going to make a new setting, then make a new setting.

 

[Derulbaskul]

I was really hoping that Paizo might also sell the Dark Sun parts without the ads as a PDF download. It would certainly save me cutting up the magazines.

Then again, as it takes at least three months before my subscription copies arrive, I will probably buy these issues when they hit the store....

 

[SSquirrel]

I was really hoping that Paizo might also sell the Dark Sun parts without the ads as a PDF download. It would certainly save me cutting up the magazines.

Investing in a scanner will be a big help to you I'm thinking.

It wasn't just the not mentioning the phlogiston or crystal spheres. The mini-game completely abandoned the aristolean physics of the setting along with everything else that separated Spelljammer from other fantasy space settings.

Ok its been awhile since I've looked thru my SJ admittedly...Aristolean physics? Aka phlogiston et al or what? Refresh me please.

Ok edit time....did a quick google search. So the Aristolean physics refers to things falling faster if they're bigger and slower if they're smaller, or at least that's one angle of it all. So they updated the science of it all by oh...2500 or so years. Works for me.

Hagen

 

[Bendris Noulg]

As an FYI to those that have not seen:

Dark Sun in Dragon
[2004-01-14] - flip

Dragon #315, subtitled Campaign Classics contains an article on Defiling, written by Dave Noonan of WotC. Also mentioned is that Dragon and Dungeon will be publishing a set of articles in May presenting a full set of Rules for playing Dark Sun in the May issue, also written by Dave Noonan. The articles will be published shortly after the release of the 3.5 Psionics Handbook, which is due out in April.


We have been in contact with the folks at Pazio, who took over the publication of Dragon and Dungeon earlier this year. I can't reveal everything that was discussed, as we're still trying to sort out the relationship.

Pazio has a rule that they cannot publish anything that has been published elsewhere, which eliminates everything currently on the site. It also invalidates quite a bit of our non-module development materials, since we have been very open in our rule-development process over the years.

However, we're discussing with them how to better involve Athas.org in the process. Whatever results come of this will likely be applicable to all of the official sites.

No matter what ends up happing, however, there is a continued place for athas.org, and all of the official sites. Dragon is a D&D generalist magazine -- it's needs and goals don't mesh well with the continued support that a fleshed out setting requires. Products such as City State of Draj (even if it were much, much shorter) just aren't the sort of thing that Dragon is insterested in publishing, because it's not of much use to the majority of their audience.

Personally, I dug Dark Sun, but the only people that I knew playing it were folks I didn't particularly enjoy gaming with (and, unfortunately, Dark Sun did little more than boost the behavior I didn't like), so I bought it mostly for inspiration and psionic variants. Being not too thrilled with 3E Psi, Dark Sun 3E doesn't particularly interest me, but that's not Athas.org's fault (they have their limitations in some regards, and going too far from 3E standards is one of them); a Dark Sun d20 game (with different Psi) might have appealed more, but that's all a matter of taste.

While I found many of the mechanics in Spider Moon to be clean, the micronization of the setting made it unappealing overall (and not containing OGC, it's hands-off for me anyway). So, yet again, I find myself making my own version, being a transitive planar sea rather than Phlogistan, with my own worlds and races to populate it.

Gawds... The work never ends...