D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Umbran]

Given the overall experience of how 5e seems to have gone, opt-in elements (e.g. gritty rest variant) get little if any uptake even when presented right there in the DMG while opt-out elements (e.g. feats) become more or less baked in as standard.

Technically, feats are an opt-in element. They are just really popular, so loads of folks opt-in.

PHB: "This chapter defines two optional sets of rules for customizing your character: multiclassing and feats."

 

[Justice and Rule]

Right, but nobody is saying to put costs and rules (and this is wizards we are talking about, you know they are going to skimp on rules!) for slavery anyway. Nobody is going to look up a table with costs for a person, which afaik was the issue with PF.

Part of the issue was that it was in some book and just about everything in the books is legal in PFS. In looking that up there are threads asking about it and it is like... woof. Some people just can set off alarms, y'know?

But the fact of the matter is that even if you don't put a price down doesn't mean you're not going to get people trying to find a price. They didn't give much in the way of magic item prices, either, but people definitely made prices for them.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I'm sure WOTC will handle slavery as well as Fortnite handled Martin Luther King Jr.!

Fortnite’s MLK event is a weird way to hear the ‘I Have a Dream’ speech

Discover the March Through Time exhibit from Time Studios

www.polygon.com

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Again, you can't cover everything, but you can force trolls and such to do it themselves. When you have slavery as a legalized thing, especially in this sort of game, there's absolutely going to be people asking "How much for a slave?" and that's a question you want to avoid.

And you still can play that in your old campaigns, but I'm not sure that given what Wizards and D&D is now that it would be prudent. There are definitely games meant to deal with that sort of topic, but I don't know if D&D is the best one given how wide the audience is.



So I helped Kickstart a Delta Green campaign called God's Teeth which absolutely includes amount child abuse and animal abuse. Of course, that game goes out of its way to talk about that stuff and explain it and present it in the most horrifying way possible, while also making it the mission to destroy that s***. But that's because Delta Green's gameplay is focused around destroying that stuff, unlike D&D which is basically a sandbox.

This is what I am coming to grips with. The company is targeting different folks now. Some long time players have said the game does not care about their demographic anymore.

If we are trying to draw in and shield 12 year olds, - lot of what is offered is just not going to be for me.

And Dark Sun is just one setting/thing. I have not actually played in it! I am just worried about safety over novelty and excitement and I think that is where it’s all headed.

 

[Scribe]

Part of the issue was that it was in some book and just about everything in the books is legal in PFS. In looking that up there are threads asking about it and it is like... woof. Some people just can set off alarms, y'know?

But the fact of the matter is that even if you don't put a price down doesn't mean you're not going to get people trying to find a price. They didn't give much in the way of magic item prices, either, but people definitely made prices for them.

I mean...right, but people who are going to go to that kind of bother, are already on the wrong side of it, and are almost CERTAINLY not the ones just rolling up to the FLGS to put together a pick up game, right?

Or maybe I just have misguided faith in the general tide of humanity despite all evidence to the contrary.

If we cannot have 'bad things' in settings, because people will be bad people because of those bad things being in settings....? Its not the settings fault people are naughty word. Its those people are just naughty word.

Just wrap it up and call down the nukes please.

 

[Faolyn]

I'm trying to remember how much blowback Tarantino got about his treatment of the issue in Django Unchained. It's the nearest equivalent I can come up with in recent entertainment media to how DS historically treated slavery.

Mind you, Tarantino is about as far as you can get from my idea of the moral compass on this sort of thing, but I'm more thinking of what the public response was like.

Movies also different from games. Unless you're actually involved in making the movie, you're a passive watcher. And even then, you can easily turn it the movie off (or walk out of the theater) if it bothers you. With an RPG, for a brief time, you are the character, are immersed in the world, and are taking part of the action. RPGs are active and require an active mindset and active participation.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Extreme violence is usually done against creatures who are trying to attack you or other people.

Slavery is usually done against creatures who are incapable of fighting back.

And then my PC kills the naughty word out of those slavers and then I’m the hero that freed the elven slaves.

 

[Umbran]

And Dark Sun is just one setting/thing. I have not actually played in it! I am just worried about safety over novelty and excitement and I think that is where it’s all headed.

Well, none of the things being discussed are at all novel. Dark Sun itself isn't novel, either. So this is not a matter of safety over novelty.

Are they really required for excitement?

 

[Faolyn]

And then my PC kills the naughty word out of those slavers and then I’m the hero that freed the elven slaves.

That doesn't change the fact that the slavery was done in the first place.

Nor does it change the fact that, in Dark Sun, it's entirely possible the PCs would be the slaves. Or, in some parties, the slavers.

 

[humble minion]

If we are trying to draw in and shield 12 year olds, - lot of what is offered is just not going to be for me.

It's hard to come to that conclusion, in my opinion. You may be just exaggerating for sake of effect, and if so I apologise, but just in the last few years, WotC have released one adventure that infamously required the PCs to talk an innocent being into suicide, another (Xaryxis) that I haven't read but I've gathered that the GOOD ending involves something close to destruction of an inhabited planet, another (Frostmaiden) where even the Lawful Good communities have resorted to human sacrifice, and an iteration of Ravenloft that's appallingly bleak, nihilistic, and you-can-never-win even by historical Ravenloft standards. This isn't reflective of a game line aimed at tweens.

WotCs primary target market, as far as i can tell, is late teens (when people start earning enough money to pay D&D prices for hobby material) up until mid-20s to early 30s (when people start having kids and their gaming time frequently vanishes).

Remember that WotCs primary 3pp partner/content producer/whatever is Critical Role. They've published books in collaboration with Critical Role, they've advertised on Critical Role, etc etc. And Critical Role is many things, but 'a product aimed at mostly 12 year olds' is NOT one of them.