D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Lanefan]

No one is making a grand spectacle of human misery here.

Making a grand spectacle of Gnomish misery, on the other hand...

 

[Mark Hope]

Making a grand spectacle of Gnomish misery, on the other hand...

The Shadow King of Nibenay approves of this post

 

[Imaro]

That's not how Creative Commons works

I meant that along with WotC's precedent of releasing the campaign setting IP's on DM's Guild. Again my point being WotC wouldn't control what others chose to publish for it... IP wise or rules wise.

 

[overgeeked]

I meant that along with WotC's precedent of releasing the campaign setting IP's on DM's Guild. Again my point being WotC wouldn't control what others chose to publish for it... IP wise or rules wise.

It’s false that WotC has no control over their IP once opened on DM‘s Guild. WotC can and has told DM‘s Guild to pull things and the Guild has done so. The Guild also has community standards to fall back on. I linked them for you.

 

[Imaro]

It’s false that WotC has no control over their IP once opened on DM‘s Guild. WotC can and has told DM‘s Guild to pull things and the Guild has done so. The Guild also has community standards to fall back on. I linked them for you.

I looked over the community standards... and saw none that addressed my specific concern around slavery in Dark Sun and how some could choose to interact with it in their game, much less anything that would address it specifically outside of violence against children and sexual content... Also do you have examples of what WotC has had pulled from DM's Guild?

 

[delericho]

Q: Is problematic content acceptable in a work if it's presented as obviously and explicitly evil and meant to be fought?

IMO, problematic content is acceptable even if it isn't presented as obviously and explicitly evil and meant to be fought. Just label it appropriately (and, in movies and games, give it the appropriate certificate level). "He Man" and "Game of Thrones" are both valid expressions of fantasy.

 

[overgeeked]

I looked over the community standards... and saw none that addressed my specific concern around slavery in Dark Sun and how some could choose to interact with it in their game, much less anything that would address it specifically outside of violence against children and sexual content... Also do you have examples of what WotC has had pulled from DM's Guild?

You cannot and never will be able to control what other people do at their tables. Why are people so obsessed with that idea? Why is that the line? Someone somewhere might do something you don’t like therefore this cannot exist. It’s a ridiculous stance. People have freedom of speech. There’s a possibility someone will say something you don’t like. Do you want to eliminate freedom of speech to prevent them from saying things you don’t like? People have free will. Do you want to end that because they might do things you don’t like? The only things that get to exist are thing you personally deem acceptable and safe for others to interact with. Come on.

 

[Hussar]

I've read the thread and ok, let's get down to specifics. Everyone seems to be keeping pretty high altitude, but, I want to really pin down what we mean here.

So, @overgeeked, your premise is that it is acceptable to include problematic elements so long as it's presented as something to be fought against. Fair enough. Let's run with that.

In the first scene of our campaign, several slave children are being torn to death by goblins in a public square for edification of the onlookers who are taking bets on which slave child will die first. You are all 1st level PC's and if you try to intervene, the local guards will kill you. Sure, you might be able to come back in a few levels, but, you cannot possibly help these people.​

This would be acceptable in a D&D sourcebook published by WotC? Obviously not.

See, this is the problem right here. You want to include the "problematic material" but then run into the whole PG 13 version of the world that D&D and WotC presents. Which means any "problematic material" will always be whitewashed and sanitized. The horrors of slavery will never actually be on screen. The horrors of these various "problematic materials" cannot actually be added to the game.

And, let's be honest here, that example I wrote above is a very, very minor horror compared to the actual horrors of slavery. Or genocide. Or any other "problematic content".

So, no, I strongly oppose the idea that just because it's "something to fight" that using things like slavery or whatnot, is somehow something that WotC should be using as adventure ideas for the game. If you want to do that with your table, go right ahead. Nothing is stopping you. But, for WotC to try to deal with it in such a way that it's acceptable to millions of people? Not a chance.

 

[Imaro]

You cannot and never will be able to control what other people do at their tables. Why are people so obsessed with that idea? Why is that the line? Someone somewhere might do something you don’t like therefore this cannot exist. It’s a ridiculous stance. People have freedom of speech. There’s a possibility someone will say something you don’t like. Do you want to eliminate freedom of speech to prevent them from saying things you don’t like? People have free will. Do you want to end that because they might do things you don’t like? The only things that get to exist are thing you personally deem acceptable and safe for others to interact with. Come on.

Not sure what this has to do with my post but to answer your question... because there is a history of certain "free speech" being weaponized in America against certain people. Now what you do in private is your own business but since WotC is a publicly traded company and a large part of their marketing and promotion centers on public play efforts which is a different kettle than a privately hosted game... yes they do have to control what they print, with an eye towards how it can be used in a negative manner as well as what can be pointed at and laid at their feet, insofar as blame is concerned, when it comes to their products, brandand the things associated with them.

 

[overgeeked]

Not sure what this has to do with my post…

I looked over the community standards... and saw none that addressed my specific concern around slavery in Dark Sun and how some could choose to interact with it in their game

You want to have control over how other people play. You flat out say so. That’s what I was responding to.

but to answer your question... because there is a history of certain "free speech" being weaponized in America against certain people.

Yes. Unfortunately. That is true. The counter to that is more free speech, not less.