D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Imaro]

You want to have control over how other people play. You flat out say so. That’s what I was responding to.

No I want to have a modicum of control over how I as well as other black Americans may be made to feel if they choose to become a part of and interact with this hobby.

EDIT: Are you black? Are you American? I feel like in claiming presenting something in a D&D book is ok if you fight it... you're presenting what amounts to a simplistic view of something that is far from it. Am I saying slavery shouldn't be in ttrpg's... nope. Do I think the premiere ttrpg company that is the gateway for 99% of the hobby should have a major setting where slavery is accepted as the status quo, a major part of it's themes and can be used however any particular group wants... no, not really... it sounds like a landmine field waiting for one wrong move... and I understand why WotC doesn;t want to tackle it.

Yes. Unfortunately. That is true. The counter to that is more free speech, not less.

Well since you've got it all figured out, and it's such a simple solution... shouldn't be a problem in America much longer...

 

[overgeeked]

No I want to have a modicum of control over how I as well as other black Americans may be made to feel if they choose to become a part of and interact with this hobby.

You don’t get to control what other people do. That’s not up to you. It’s up to them. Yes, that might result in things happening you don‘t like. You still don’t get to control what other people do.

Well since you've got it all figured out, and it's such a simple solution... shouldn't be a problem in America much longer...

Right back at you. Once everyone submits to giving up their freedoms nothing bad will ever happen again.

ETA: I’m a free speech absolutist. There’s no middle ground to be found where even the suggestion of controlling what other people get to think, feel, or read is concerned.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Yes. Unfortunately. That is true. The counter to that is more free speech, not less.

Tell that to the folks that ride in the shout down any time anyone expresses concern about crap like racism, slavery, etc.

 

[overgeeked]

Nasty little racist aren't you. He, a POC gamer, gave you a suggestion as to why being an edgelord is undesirable, but you really want your slavery roleplay don't you
So glad your kind are getting left behind in this world.

"You want to engage with content I find objectionable, therefore you must be personally objectionable."

That's not how it works. People who watch shows or movies about serial killers are not themselves serial killers. Sometimes a game about punching Nazis really is just a game about punching Nazis.

 

[Campbell]

When you are demanding what material Wizards of the Coast, who owns Dungeons and Dragons, must produce as if they have a specific duty to comply with your specific desires that is not free speech absolutism or taking a stand against censorship. Quite the opposite in fact. Wizards is under no duty to produce what you desire them to do.

I personally am not very happy with some of their decisions to pull products from the DM's Guild and I think third party producers should be able to produce whatever sort of material they wish to, but this is purely about how Wizards wants to present their own game. Making it about free speech when you are seeking to compel them to deliver product they do not wish to deliver is not a good look.

This isn't even about how faithful the products they produce are to their antecedents. It's about them not feeling like they can produce Dark Sun material in a way that is consistent with their vision of the Dungeons and Dragons game they want to produce and sell. They're not making changes. They just do not want to develop a modern update to the setting, as is their right as the owner of the IP.

 

[billd91]

"You want to engage with content I find objectionable, therefore you must be personally objectionable."

That's not how it works. People who watch shows or movies about serial killers are not themselves serial killers. Sometimes a game about punching Nazis really is just a game about punching Nazis.

From the point of view of people who do find the subject matter objectionable, they're perfectly free to find you personally objectionable as well -- and say so. Free speech and all that...

Of course, having the freedom to say something (or publish it) also entails the freedom to keep your mouth shut (or not publish) if you feel that there's more downside to saying it than not.

 

[Imaro]

You don’t get to control what other people do. That’s not up to you. It’s up to them. Yes, that might result in things happening you don‘t like. You still don’t get to control what other people do.

No it's up to WotC and they have decided not to publish it as of right now...

Right back at you. Once everyone submits to giving up their freedoms nothing bad will ever happen again.

You must have a serious issue with the forum rules here then. More importantly someone is free to play how they want... What we are discussing is whether it's a good idea or not for WotC to publish a particular product. Gave my reasons for why I don't think it is. WotC seems to agree (if not on the reasons, the fact that it's not a good idea) so they exercised their rights to speak (publish) or not with their IP.

ETA: I’m a free speech absolutist. There’s no middle ground to be found where even the suggestion of controlling what other people get to think, feel, or read is concerned.

And that would be great in a society where power distribution is equal... otherwise some people's free speech isn't really equal to others is it?

You however also seem to have a problem that WotC chose the route that they did... if you're an advocate for true freedom of speech that also means being ok with someone choosing not to speak (publish). They weren't censored they made a choice and you seem unwilling to accept it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

From the point of view of people who do find the subject matter objectionable, they're perfectly free to find you personally objectionable as well -- and say so. Free speech and all that...

Of course, having the freedom to say something (or publish it) also entails the freedom to keep your mouth shut (or not publish) if you feel that there's more downside to saying it than not.

I'm not saying it's necessarily the case with that poster, but 1) very few people actually grok what 'free speech' actually means and 2) those who harp on it these days usually mean they don't want consequences for what they say, and the ability to attack people who don't without any clapback.

 

[DarkCrisis]

That doesn't change the fact that the slavery was done in the first place.

Nor does it change the fact that, in Dark Sun, it's entirely possible the PCs would be the slaves. Or, in some parties, the slavers.

PC: "Oh Slaves exist? I want to buy one.
DM: side eye "Sigh. You are unable to find anyone who wants to sale you one."

In my decades of play and DMing I have never had another player want to own a slave and 100% of the time fight to free them. Heck most PCs would rathe throw gold at a hireling and put that paid employee into serious danger.

 

[Umbran]

Nasty little racist aren't you.

Mod Note:
This isn't acceptable. You're done in this conversation.

I would recommend you never speak to folks like this on these boards ever again.