D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Not really. Just goes to show that you don't really have an argument, just low-tier troll bait.

I probably should report this. I know you would!

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

It's from another thread that he was doing the free speech concern trolling on. It's just a distraction.

Please argue in good faith.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I probably should report this. I know you would!

So just to be clear, no numbers?

Good, glad we established that.

Please argue in good faith.

I am. You're the one trying to meme around from another thread, and I feel justified in saying the whole "Free Speech" thing is just an act of concern-trolling.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Nobody's expression is being curtailed. Also, "freedom of expression" refers only to the government stopping people from expressing themselves. WotC is a private business. They can do whatever they want.

I really don't think this is true. Freedom of expression is a societal right. Individuals acting against that principle are falling short of that ideal. It has nothing to do with 'the government is doing it'.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

So just to be clear, no numbers?

Good, glad we established that.



I am. You're the one trying to meme around from another thread, and I feel justified in saying the whole "Free Speech" thing is just an act of concern-trolling.

I don't know what concern trolling is. Nor do I care. You are not arguing in a reasonable manner. Your emotions are amped up. Come back when you can be less aggressive. I promise I will not hold anything against you.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I really don't think this is true. Freedom of expression is a societal right. Individuals acting against that principle are falling short of that ideal. It has nothing to do with 'the government is doing it'.

It is a societal right, but that's only because it deals with government power over speech. That's the whole point. The idea that it's not just about restrictions on the government misses that it very much is, and shows that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept.

I don't know what concern trolling is. Nor do I care. You are not arguing in a reasonable manner. Your emotions are amped up. Come back when you can be less aggressive. I promise I will not hold anything against you.

You're clearly struggling for a way out of giving out numbers. We'll just say that you don't know how big or small either group is, because there is no actual affirmative numbers either way.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Anyway, I'm going to bed. Good night @Faolyn . Good night @Justice and Rule . Chill out though my man. And good night @Irlo. I enjoyed the conversation.

 

[OldOwlbear]

Nobody's expression is being curtailed. Also, "freedom of expression" refers only to the government stopping people from expressing themselves. WotC is a private business. They can do whatever they want.

Now, if the actual government told WotC they weren't allowed to produce games with slavery in it, you'd have a point. But they haven't.

I don’t think anyone is talking about freedom of expression as a legal right, but as social norm. Arguing that it’s immoral or unethical in absolute terms to portray certain topics in art or other forms of expression - including games - would lead to a cultural chilling effect on what can and cannot be made. That is especially true in a capitalist society and is what I believe people are arguing here when posting their concerns about WotC’s decision. That chilling effect is especially frustrating when people have the freedom instead to say ‘others have the right play or write about x and I have the right to avoid x if it makes me uncomfortable’ without the moral judgement. It becomes terrifying when people start acting like a moral police force.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I don’t think anyone is talking about freedom of expression as a legal right, but as social norm. Arguing that it’s immoral or unethical in absolute terms to portray certain topics in art or other forms of expression - including games - would lead to a cultural chilling effect on what can and cannot be made. That is especially true in a capitalist society and is what I believe people are arguing here when posting their concerns about WotC’s decision. That chilling effect is especially frustrating when people have the freedom instead to say ‘others have the right play or write about x and I have the right to avoid x if it makes me uncomfortable’ without the moral judgement. It becomes terrifying when people start acting like a moral police force.

A much better summation of the many arguments I have made on this subject. Now, I'm definitely going to bed...

 

[Justice and Rule]

I don’t think anyone is talking about freedom of expression as a legal right, but as social norm. Arguing that it’s immoral or unethical in absolute terms to portray certain topics in art or other forms of expression - including games - would lead to a cultural chilling effect on what can and cannot be made. That is especially true in a capitalist society and is what I believe people are arguing here when posting their concerns about WotC’s decision. That chilling effect is especially frustrating when people have the freedom instead to say ‘others have the right play or write about x and I have the right to avoid x if it makes me uncomfortable’ without the moral judgement. It becomes terrifying when people start acting like a moral police force.

No one is saying something can't be made, but rather that there are certain consequences and pitfalls with things being made. You can make whatever you want, but you are not free from judgment in that regard.

What people are saying is that the interactive nature combined with the broad audience and sensitive material being talked about would make it difficult to properly adapt without taking due care. People don't think that Wizards can do that, and it seems as though even Wizards doesn't think that they can do this.

You mention a "chilling effect", but no one has tried to not discuss it. Instead people don't seem to realize that it is very different to talk about how you run things in your personal group versus producing something that is meant to be consumed by the masses. I know I can deal with topics in my group that I would not be comfortable publishing because I do not know how a broader audience would necessarily interpret how I did things, nor might it hold up to the level of scrutiny if released to a broader audience.